gas vs diesel

[calicamper]

You're absolutely right in one regard: other countries have vastly different emissions standards when it comes to their vehicles (not just diesels). So places like Austrlia, South Africa, and elsewhere tend to have a huge consumer demand for diesel engines (for both commercial and private use) because they don't have to contend with complicated and costly emissions compliance.

In fact, that seems to be the major hindrance facing the diesel market in America: emissions compliance. Once the manufacturers figure out that can of worms, which they seem to be working through as we speak, I can envision a lot more truck owners and even commuters buying diesel engines due to their efficiency and longevity.




Are you implying that many people want to buy a diesel for the sake of image? Maybe, but that can be said for a lot of things and products.


What exactly has the diesel industry as a whole "stated" as fact. You've lost me here, though I'm guessing your response is going to consist of some highly subjective lecture.



Actually the Ram 1500 Ecodiesel seems to be making a very good case for diesels in full-sized pickup's...so far the reviews and owner feedback has been fairly positive, especially in regards to the mpg. And the Chevy/GMC 2.8L duramax may make a case for diesels in mid-sized pickup's...we'll see.

And yes, we all want clean air. And if you look at how US emission regulations have changed over the last few decades, the quality of air here in the US is drastically better than what it was in years past. The problem is that much of the rest of the world, especially developing nations, aren't enforcing similar standards, and with their still nascent economies and technological base, are still reliant on cheap fossil fuel sources for a variety of applications (not just cars).

I get what you are saying: some people here in America could make more of an effort to use cleaner energy sources, but that's germane to a lot of different things, not just what car you drive. Heck, you and I simply typing this discussion on our computers uses energy, which more than likely comes from fossil fuel sources (given the nature of the American power grid). There is always room for improvement, but by and large, American industry has made giant leaps in cleaning up; any further discussion of "cleaner air" here in the US becomes largely meaningless if we continue to ignore what the rest of the world is doing.

I generated 32kwhrs yesterday. Granted it was with Korean made solar panels butt... ;-)

 

[Clutch]

I generated 32kwhrs yesterday. Granted it was with Korean made solar panels butt... ;-)

We are on hydro....neener neener....

...it destroys, yet creates habitat. Fairly clean energy, tho'

 

[poriggity]

I bet you love those maxxforce engines. Lol

Finally caught up with this thread.. If I could drive all of our maxgorce engined trucks off a cliff, I would. I HATE Internationals lol

 

[calicamper]

We are on hydro....neener neener....

...it destroys, yet creates habitat. Fairly clean energy, tho'

I wish! Friend has a hydro generator on his off grid cabin. Cool stuff!

 

[Clutch]

Actually the Ram 1500 Ecodiesel seems to be making a very good case for diesels in full-sized pickup's...so far the reviews and owner feedback has been fairly positive, especially in regards to the mpg. And the Chevy/GMC 2.8L duramax may make a case for diesels in mid-sized pickup's...we'll see.

The Rams are certainly priced right $30K for a WT model, they peak my interest...however, how well will they hold up with out needing major repair over the course of 10-15 years with 200-300,000 on the ODO?

Gas Toyotas will do that without even flinching, basically just keep the oil changed. Sacrifice a little bit of power and mpg's...they do hold the crown for long term reliability.

The annual fuel cost between 20 and 30 mpg isn't all that much. Toss in an expensive diesel repair here and there, blows any savings on fuel out of the water.

Are the new diesels, something you only own under warranty...or can you take your chances like you can with a gas Toyota? http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1602-the-million-mile-2007-toyota-tundra/

 

[Clutch]

I wish! Friend has a hydro generator on his off grid cabin. Cool stuff!

:elkgrin:

 

[Dalko43]

The Rams are certainly priced right $30K for a WT model, they peak my interest...however, how well will they hold up with out needing major repair over the course of 10-15 years with 200-300,000 on the ODO?

Gas Toyotas will do that without even flinching, basically just keep the oil changed. Sacrifice a little bit of power and mpg's...they do hold the crown for long term reliability.

The annual fuel cost between 20 and 30 mpg isn't all that much. Toss in an expensive diesel repair here and there, blows any savings on fuel out of the water.

Are the new diesels, something you only own under warranty...or can you take your chances like you can with a gas Toyota? http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1602-the-million-mile-2007-toyota-tundra/

I think most would disagree that a Toyota, or any gas engine for that matter, is better known for longevity than a diesel simply due to the differences of construction and design of the two engine types...but we've already had this discussion before and your mind seems made up on that matter.

As for reliability for the Ram Ecodiesel and GM's 2.8L Duramax, those are unknowns and we'll have to wait and see how they fare over the long term.

BTW, that million mile Tundra is an exception to the norm, and you know that. Most gasoline engines do not last even half that long. Diesel engines on commercial big rigs and even private trucks routinely hit that mile marker and then some:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-powertrain/377241-1-7-million-miles-counting-00-ctd.html

 

[Dalko43]

I generated 32kwhrs yesterday. Granted it was with Korean made solar panels butt... ;-)

That's great for you!

Just realize that the overwhelming majority of the American power grid still relies on fossil fuel sources or the best alternative IMHO, nuclear power.

 

[S2DM]

I think most would disagree that a Toyota, or any gas engine for that matter, is better known for longevity than a diesel simply due to the differences of construction and design of the two engine types...but we've already had this discussion before and your mind seems made up on that matter.

As for reliability for the Ram Ecodiesel and GM's 2.8L Duramax, those are unknowns and we'll have to wait and see how they fare over the long term.

I'm going to argue that we really can't comment on diesel longevity and cost of ownership anymore until the 2008s, or really 2011s for that matter, are into their teens. So many changes to diesel technology necessitated by emission standards in the states, has completely changed the game. Much of the opinion on the subject is really generated by experience with a technology that no longer exists, or atleast, is radically different, than what is currently available.

 

[Clutch]

I think most would disagree that a Toyota, or any gas engine for that matter, is better known for longevity than a diesel simply due to the differences of construction and design of the two engine types...but we've already had this discussion before and your mind seems made up on that matter.

Like-wise, you keep on missing the point when I say "reliability" of a modern diesel,...I am not talking about the engine itself...I am referring to all the systems that go along with it...DEF, injectors, fuel pump, turbo, etc... Those aren't cheap repairs. Will those go 200-300,000 miles without having to be replaced? No matter how many times I have referred to those systems, you seem to ignore what I am asking.

The Ram Ecodiesel in the WT package seems like a good deal to me, but am I going to have to ditch when it hits 100,000 miles, when the warranty is up, because expensive repairs are in its' near future? Or can I treat it like my Toyotas I have owned...and not worry too much, and run it up to 300,000 miles and beyond without much fuss? You're a diesel fan, sell it to me...let me hear it.

High mile Toyotas are not the exception...they tend to be the rule. Of course, you'll disagree...

 

[IdaSHO]

100,000+ mile Chrysler?


that will be the day


**snicker**



:coffeedrink:

 

[Dalko43]

Like-wise, you keep on missing the point when I say "reliability" of a modern diesel,...I am not talking about the engine itself...I am referring to all the systems that go along with it...DEF, injectors, fuel pump, turbo, etc... Those aren't cheap repairs. Will those go 200-300,000 miles without having to be replaced? No matter how many times I have referred to those systems, you seem to ignore what I am asking.

The Ram Ecodiesel in the WT package seems like a good deal to me, but am I going to have to ditch when it hits 100,000 miles, when the warranty is up, because expensive repairs are in its' near future? Or can I treat it like my Toyotas I have owned...and not worry too much, and run it up to 300,000 miles and beyond without much fuss? You're a diesel fan, sell it to me...let me hear it.

I agree, the longterm reliability of the new emissions systems has yet to be fully proven, though some of this stuff has been around since about 2007, so there is some real world data to draw from. I wouldn't expect all of these new technologies to be integrated into the diesel market without at least some teething issues, in the same way that many gasoline engines had some issues when the EPA started slapping tighter emissions standards on them many years back.

So far, the big 3 companies seem to be working through these obstacles all right. Sure, there have been some technical service bulletins and customer complaints about these emissions systems, which is to be expected, but I haven't heard of any the big 3 HD diesel engines having catastrophic flaws, at least not the ones that came out over the last few years.

The reviews on the Ram Ecodiesel look promising so far. It hasn't been out long enough to get a good read on its long term reliability. You're welcome to assume that it will be a PITA to own out of warranty, but that's all that is: an assumption on your part.

High mile Toyotas are not the exception...they tend to be the rule. Of course, you'll disagree...

Actually, I agree with you. Toyotas with 250k-300k miles on the clock are not uncommon. Million mile Toyotas are uncommon.

The definition of "high mileage" varies depending on the type of engine we are talking about.

 

[Clutch]

I agree, the longterm reliability of the new emissions systems has yet to be fully proven, though some of this stuff has been around since about 2007, so there is some real world data to draw from. I wouldn't expect all of these new technologies to be integrated into the diesel market without at least some teething issues, in the same way that many gasoline engines had some issues when the EPA started slapping tighter emissions standards on them many years back.

So far, the big 3 companies seem to be working through these obstacles all right. Sure, there have been some technical service bulletins and customer complaints about these emissions systems, which is to be expected, but I haven't heard of any the big 3 HD diesel engines having catastrophic flaws, at least not the ones that came out over the last few years.

The reviews on the Ram Ecodiesel look promising so far. It hasn't been out long enough to get a good read on its long term reliability. You're welcome to assume that it will be a PITA to own out of warranty, but that's all that is: an assumption on your part.

*thumbs-up*


Thanks, that is what I was looking for.

Actually, I agree with you. Toyotas with 250k-300k miles on the clock are not uncommon. Million mile Toyotas are uncommon.

The definition of "high mileage" varies depending on the type of engine we are talking about.

I remember the days when you're were consider lucky to get a vehicle to 100,000 miles. So anything over that. Though you would hear rumors of 500,000+ mile Toyotas. Sure a million+ miles on over the road semi-trucks is fairly normal, but on a passenger vehicle is pretty rare for any manufacture.

 

[Clutch]

100,000+ mile Chrysler?


that will be the day


**snicker**



:coffeedrink:

ha!

The ecodiesel does look good on paper, just don't know if I could own a ChryCoFiat vehicle. The Ford EcoBoost 2.7 looks good too...not sure if would trust those turbos. Maybe if I flipped them every couple years, but I don't....hell, my Toyota refuses to die...320K on it now...I keep on making excuses to replace it, but it keeps on going...so why spend the money on a new truck? Maybe it will go 1,000,000 miles...

 

[Dalko43]

I remember the days when you're were consider lucky to get a vehicle to 100,000 miles. So anything over that. Though you would hear rumors of 500,000+ mile Toyotas. Sure a million+ miles on over the road semi-trucks is fairly normal, but on a passenger vehicle is pretty rare for any manufacture.

I'm not just talking about semi-truck engines, I'm talking about all diesel engines. It's been pretty well proven that diesel engines, on average, last much longer than gasoline ones. Yes, the recent emissions changes potentially muddy the waters a bit, though like we've already acknowledged, those systems are still relatively new.

But even the newer, emissions-compliant HD pickup engines are known to get anywhere from 500k miles to well beyond:

http://www.cumminshighmileageclub.com/truck/search

I appreciate the longevity and reliability of a Toyota gasoline engine, relative to other gasoline engines. But there is no point in comparing them to diesels in that regard...apples to oranges.