EV acceptance is peaking

3laine

Member
This is an awful hard sales pitch you are putting out. Let the consumer decide- even you and Blaise admit it doesn’t work for you as a full time vehicle, and bottom line most folks don’t buy a part time car- they need a do it all car.

False premise. It's not a sales pitch at all. I haven't suggested anyone should buy one, and I've said they don't work for everyone or every use case. Overlanding is one of the most extreme use cases, and an EV might not work well for that in a substantial number of use cases. That's fine. But that's not the topic.

It does work as a full-time vehicle for me and many other people. But we are a multi-car family, so we have both.

But the point is, I responded to a very specific claim that Chicago had "plenty of EV charging", implying that this problem and its magnitude were an unavoidable reality of EVs. However, the reality is that the infrastructure there is insufficient even during good weather, and the lack of this level of issue across much of the northern US that also had severely cold weather and EVs indicates there is another variable at play.

I'm not saying EVs are for everyone, or that they have zero problems related to cold, despite many attempts to claim those are my points. My point is that the magnitude of this problem is not inherent to EVs. It's a problem that can be mostly mitigated by *actually* having "plenty of charging stations," contrary to the claim I responded to.
 

3laine

Member
I think the discussion for most was....these things suck in cold weather and really suck in extreme cold weather...

Some people were having a general discussion, sure. However, I responded to a very specific claim regarding this specific case in Chicago that there were "plenty of EV chargers" implying that wasn't a major contributor to the magnitude of the issue.

You obviously realized that was the specific topic we were discussing, because you attempted to compare the number of EVs to chargers in the Chicago area.

Now that your numbers/analysis on the specific topic of Chicago charging infrastructure have been shown to be nonsense, you're now trying to move the pretend like there wasn't a very specific topic being discussed, even though you responded specifically about Chicago charging infrastructure.
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
False premise. It's not a sales pitch at all. I haven't suggested anyone should buy one, and I've said they don't work for everyone or every use case. Overlanding is one of the most extreme use cases, and an EV might not work well for that in a substantial number of use cases. That's fine. But that's not the topic.

It does work as a full-time vehicle for me and many other people. But we are a multi-car family, so we have both.

But the point is, I responded to a very specific claim that Chicago had "plenty of EV charging", implying that this problem and its magnitude were an unavoidable reality of EVs. However, the reality is that the infrastructure there is insufficient even during good weather, and the lack of this level of issue across much of the northern US that also had severely cold weather and EVs indicates there is another variable at play.

I'm not saying EVs are for everyone, or that they have zero problems related to cold, despite many attempts to claim those are my points. My point is that the magnitude of this problem is not inherent to EVs. It's a problem that can be mostly mitigated by *actually* having "plenty of charging stations," contrary to the claim I responded to.
Go ahead and keep arguing- everyone saw what really happened- smart folks will learn from it….
 

jaxyaks

Adventurer
Some people were having a general discussion, sure. However, I responded to a very specific claim regarding this specific case in Chicago that there were "plenty of EV chargers" implying that wasn't a major contributor to the magnitude of the issue.

You obviously realized that was the specific topic we were discussing, because you attempted to compare the number of EVs to chargers in the Chicago area.

Now that your numbers/analysis on the specific topic of Chicago charging infrastructure have been shown to be nonsense, you're now trying to move the pretend like there wasn't a very specific topic being discussed, even though you responded specifically about Chicago charging infrastructure.
Huh...I shared some info relevant to Chicago and the number of EV's in Cook county and somehow triggered the EV police. I could give 2 whatevers about EV owners in Chicago or anywhere else for that matter. Have you seen this group they may be of interest to you.

 

3laine

Member
And all the typing you have done still can't refute the one inimitable fact in all this, the cold caused people to abandon their vehicles in order to stay warm and alive, yes America needs better infrastructure and more chargers for the amount of EV's currently on the street, but that doesn't help the people that went thru this event and others like it!

Everyone agrees that the cold was one of the pieces of this problem, so I don't need to refute that. Everyone agrees on that.

The discussion is whether there were "plenty of EV chargers", as you claimed, implying that charger availability didn't meaningfully contribute to this issue.

For whatever reason, you have chosen to die on the hill that it was a lack of chargers that caused all this, even though cars were plugged in and still wouldn't charge you keep blaming the lack of chargers?

No, I'm not saying the lack of chargers was the sole cause. I'm saying it's clear that there are not "plenty of chargers" in Chicago in those locations, and I've explained in detail how having too few chargers magnifies the issues of the cold.

For instance, if someone is traveling and they stop in Chicago to charge, if the navigation is telling them to stop there, the car will have pre-heated the battery to the appropriate temperature for charging, and it will charge normally, or near-normally. This is likely why this magnitude of issue wasn't spread across the northern states despite similar temps.

If, however, the car was preheated, but then arrives at the charging station to a 2-hour long line, now the pre-heating shuts off, and the battery is getting colder and the car may even run completely out of energy.

So, in that case, too few available/working chargers changed that person's trip from uneventful to disaster.

Cold has an effect, but sufficient charging infrastructure can make a big difference because it can be the difference between a plugging in a properly warmed battery at 5% battery level and plugging in a dead, cold-soaked battery hours later.

If I owned an EV in that situation and got it plugged in and it wouldn't charge, I wouldn't give a damn why it wouldn't charge, the simple fact that it was plugged in and I had to leave it to get to somewhere warm would make that car leave my stable never to return!

Cool. Don't buy one. I never said you should buy one or that you should be OK with this problem if you had one. Another strawman.
 

NevadaLover

Forking Icehole
I'My point is that the magnitude of this problem is not inherent to EVs. It's a problem that can be mostly mitigated by *actually* having "plenty of charging stations," contrary to the claim I responded to.

What?? This is a problem that is absolutely inherently an EV problem! If there had been lots with abandoned ICE vehicles in them the media would have been all over that story and bashing ICE vehicles for that flaw, but when it was EV's it was really only brought to the publics attention because of social media and a few somewhat trustworthy news stations, and I know that "trustworthy news stations" is hard to imagine.

Sometimes ICE vehicles fail when it gets cold, for whatever reason, but again I argue that there have been no reports of ICE vehicles left in lots en mass!

And if a functioning ICE vehicle gets to a refueling station it can stay running while refueling and the driver can be on their way quickly, unlike the lots shown that had EV's plugged into their chargers and not charging!
 

NevadaLover

Forking Icehole
Everyone agrees that the cold was one of the pieces of this problem, so I don't need to refute that. Everyone agrees on that.

The discussion is whether there were "plenty of EV chargers", as you claimed, implying that charger availability didn't meaningfully contribute to this issue.



No, I'm not saying the lack of chargers was the sole cause. I'm saying it's clear that there are not "plenty of chargers" in Chicago in those locations, and I've explained in detail how having too few chargers magnifies the issues of the cold.

For instance, if someone is traveling and they stop in Chicago to charge, if the navigation is telling them to stop there, the car will have pre-heated the battery to the appropriate temperature for charging, and it will charge normally, or near-normally. This is likely why this magnitude of issue wasn't spread across the northern states despite similar temps.

If, however, the car was preheated, but then arrives at the charging station to a 2-hour long line, now the pre-heating shuts off, and the battery is getting colder and the car may even run completely out of energy.

So, in that case, too few available/working chargers changed that person's trip from uneventful to disaster.

Cold has an effect, but sufficient charging infrastructure can make a big difference because it can be the difference between a plugging in a properly warmed battery at 5% battery level and plugging in a dead, cold-soaked battery hours later.



Cool. Don't buy one. I never said you should buy one or that you should be OK with this problem if you had one. Another strawman.

Now you're just trying to twist the story to match your own personal feelings, there were charging stations shown with empty stalls and empty, abandoned vehicles plugged in, yet suddenly you claim the abandoned vehicles were plugged in "dead, cold soaked, hours later"....

Where is your proof of that? All you continue to say is that I'm wrong about "plenty of chargers", even though as I have stated and video evidence clearly shows, empty stalls in charging stations!

I'm not sure why you continue this line of BS but keep at it if you want, videos prove otherwise and your claim that all those vehicles were the result of "cold soaked batteries" due to insufficient charging stations is unsubstantiated by video evidence, for some of those vehicles that may be the case, but you can't honestly try to claim that was the case with every one of those vehicles.
 

3laine

Member
Go ahead and keep arguing- everyone saw what really happened- smart folks will learn from it….

Still no rebuttal of my points.

"Smart folks" will see the videos and wonder why this was mostly isolated to Chicago even though many other northern states get extreme cold and have EVs, too.

Then they'll look for people knowledgeable about EVs and find out about variables like battery temperatures and how insufficient charging infrastructure results in lower battery temps, slower charging, and a domino effect that we saw in Chicago, but not much elsewhere despite similar temps.
 

3laine

Member
What?? This is a problem that is absolutely inherently an EV problem
Oops, you conveniently mis-quoted me.

I said "the *magnitude* of the problem is not inherent to EVs."

This is shown by many other cold parts of the US not having this same *magnitude* of problem that Chicago had. So, what's the difference? Infrastructure that is insufficient even in good weather is making it worse, as there are several ways that it can cause greater delays and colder battery temps, creating a domino effect of issues.
 

3laine

Member
Now you're just trying to twist the story to match your own personal feelings, there were charging stations shown with empty stalls and empty, abandoned vehicles plugged in, yet suddenly you claim the abandoned vehicles were plugged in "dead, cold soaked, hours later"....

Nope. We don't have the exact details of the story for each car, so I'm giving an example of how insufficient charging infrastructure can delay charging, resulting in lower battery states of charge and colder battery temps, which greatly affect the charging experience.

Neither of us have exact data for how many chargers were available when each person arrived, how long people waited, what their battery temps were, whether they pre-conditioned their batteries in advance, etc.

We DO know, however, that these stations have a history of being insufficient even in good weather (with shorter charge times), and that wait times associated with insufficient infrastructure negatively impact the magnitude of cold-weather issues.


Where is your proof of that?

Let's see your proof of how many cars were there, and how many working chargers were available when each of the stranded cars *arrived*, and that none of them had to wait to charge.

That there were open chargers (which we can't tell if they're working or not even if they're open) whenever the camera crews showed up doesn't come close to proving that there were open, working chargers when the people arrived.

One guy says in the video that he's been there for 3 hours and was there for 8 hours the day before. No way we can tell from the video how many chargers were open (if any) when he arrived the day before, for instance.


All you continue to say is that I'm wrong about "plenty of chargers", even though as I have stated and video evidence clearly shows, empty stalls in charging stations!

Video clearly shows a different time than when the problem originally occurred, and even then, empty stalls don't mean working stations, necessarily.


your claim that all those vehicles were the result of "cold soaked batteries" due to insufficient charging stations is unsubstantiated by video evidence

I didn't claim that ALL the issues were the result of insufficient charging stations, just that the *magnitude* of the issues was increased by insufficient charging stations. The fact that this wasn't a widespread issue at this magnitude despite cold temps across the northern US is far more meaningful data than a couple videos by people who think Audi etrons are Teslas.

, for some of those vehicles that may be the case, but you can't honestly try to claim that was the case with every one of those vehicles.

Fortunately, I didn't claim that.

My claim is that the charging stations in question have a history of being insufficient even in better weather, so it stands to reason that in worse weather, when charging is slower and cars have less range, the issue was similar or worse, leading to some people waiting, making the magnitude of the issues worse due to battery usage and cooling.
 

3laine

Member
Huh...I shared some info relevant to Chicago and the number of EV's in Cook county and somehow triggered the EV police. I could give 2 whatevers about EV owners in Chicago or anywhere else for that matter. Have you seen this group they may be of interest to you.


You compared the number of EVs in a single county, Cook county, to the number of charging stations (including mostly irrelevant, slow charging stations) in a 10+ county area in parts of 3 different states, and still pretend it's "relevant" to this discussion.

You also shared some that "Level 3" chargers are called "lightning chargers", which they aren't, and you presumably just made up.

You obviously realized the topic was "are there sufficient chargers in Chicago", and cared enough to google a couple things and reply, but it's clear you didn't care whether what you were saying was accurate or meaningful.
 

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