Locker vs Open

michaelgroves

Explorer
I am not talking in theory here...it does help.
My view on these things is that every phenomenon - everything that works - has a theory behind it; a logical explanation. I like to understand the theory, because it allows me to exploit the phenomenon better. So if I believed that this technique worked, I would still be trying to understand why.

In this particular case, even though it's a long-standing legend, I'm not atall sure it does work - how would one know if one's success was attributable to BTM or not? (Or if one's failure was despite BTM, for that matter). It certainly doesn't work well enough to be obvious when it is working.

I've yet to hear a convincing theory of how it works, and I have tried experimenting myself quite extensively, both while driving and in contrived situations.


you have to under stand as you brake the rotating tire you increase the torque it transfers . then by increasing the torque it transfers you also because open diffs always transfer torque in a 50/50 manor increase the torque the tire with traction is getting. the tire with traction then has more available torque to move the truck.
Sorry, I thought I had made clear why I don't consider this a valid explanation. I do understand that braking the wheel increases the torque (on the shaft), and therefore increases the torque on the opposite side.

But the vehicle requires a force on the tyres to make it move. (Let's say it needs a total of 2000Nm to make it climb a particular slope). Only the friction between the ground and the tyres can generate that force - none of the friction between the brake discs and pads counts towards the forward movement of the truck. So let's say that one tyre has enough traction to generate 300Nm, and the other has enough traction to generate 3000Nm. Obviously, since the one tyre starts to slip at 300Nm, the stationary wheel is limited to another 300Nm, giving only 600 out of the necessary 2000 - a shortfall of 1400Nm.

So, if you apply a braking force to each side - say an additional 1000Nm on each side. That will raise the total torque on the "weak" side to 1300Nm, and of course the other side also can now generate 1300Nm, giving a total of 2600Nm, as measured on the shafts.

Enough torque? No. Because instead of requiring 2000Nm to move, we now need an additional 2000Nm to overcome the 1000Nm of braking force applied to each side. So we have 2600 out of a required total of 4000 - still a shorfall of 1400Nm!

By all means plug your own numbers in here - I don't know how hard you'd want to work the brakes! But however much you brake one side, you brake the other by precisely the same amount, and so you're back to square one.


You are not using all the brake pedal you can to do this , you are modulating the brake pedal using just enough brake to prevent the slipping tire(or soon to slip) from loosing all traction .
How does pressing the brake pedal prevent a tyre from losing traction? Traction is friction between tyre and ground, and is independent of any braking you do.


dont trust me on this ....go try it it works and many good instructors teach it because its a important technique to know for controlling a truck through technical sections.
My suspicion is that "it works" simply because it prevents people from spinning the tyre too wildly. A fast-spinning tyre has less traction than a slowly turning tyre, and the best traction is just before it breaks loose. But no braking is necessary to achieve that.


I once did see it work very convincingly - a guy in a 2WD pickup was showing me how well it worked, and it was impressive. Only thing was, it turned out he had a LSD in there, and didn't know it!


Here's one of the simple experiments I did, with a series Land Rover, in 2WD, and then the same with a Disco 1 (centre diff unlocked):

I jacked up one of the back wheels, using a trolley jack with casters, on a smooth concrete floor. Then I just put the car in various gears, and experimented with different brake/throttle techniques.

Result?

The Series truck didn't move at all. If there had been any positive effect from the BTM, it was completely offset by the front wheels being braked at the same time.

The Discovery jerked a little bit back and forth on the castered jack. I doubt it would have fallen off its own bottle jack, except perhaps on some of the more extreme wheel-spinning/slamming-on-the-brake attempts. (Incidentally, I also tried this with a front and a rear wheel up on castered jacks, and the centre diff both locked and unlocked).

This was more or less in line with what I would have predicted. Certainly there was no significant or systematic increase in driving force induced by BTM, else the car would have been driven forwards quite easily. I attribute the rocking/jerking to uneven braking forces and some internal friction in the diffs.

The good thing about this experiment is that it is easily repeatable. If anyone is intersted, by all means try it for yourself.


One final point: I have heard a different explantion for why BTM "works" woth open diffs, which I'm afraid I also don't subscribe to, and which (if true) should also have resulted in the car moving during my experiment. I'll leave it unless someone else raises it, as it is something of a red herring.
 
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yubert

Explorer
BTM works

Here's a video of me going up Dishpan Springs trail near Big Bear, in a DII. Rear lockers are recommended for this section however my DII has open diffs, no locker except CDL and no traction control. The ABS modulator needs to be replaced.

I was spinning the tries the first few attempts, but then tried left-brake-throttle-modulation and was able to get enough traction to climb through. The video doesn't show my foot action but I can definitely tell that LBTM made the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApZ2KKQFsR0
 

craig

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Michael,

Left foot braking is no different than electronic traction control.

Craig
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Michael,

Left foot braking is no different than electronic traction control.

Craig

Craig, if you had read my post, you would see why that is not at all true. ETC brakes an individual wheel.

In my quantified example (requiring 2000Nm to move the truck, and where one wheel of a pair has traction that generates 300Nm of torque, and the other has unlimited grip), an ETC system would work as follows:

It would (effectively) apply progressive pressure to the "weak" (spinning) wheel, until the braking torque reached 1400Nm. At that point the total torque on that halfshaft would be 1700, which would be matched by the other shaft (because of the open diff). The total torque would then be 3400Nm, of which 1400 would be needed to overcome the brake, and the necessary 2000 would therefore be available to move the truck.

It's no coincidence that it needs 1400Nm of braking force - it's precisely the shortfall in torque that was required in the first place.

It works because the braking takes place only on the wheel that is spinning. If the other wheel is also braked, then the gain in torque is precisely offset by the extra torque required to overcome the braking.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
well I guess this says it all...you know everything and are not open to discussion.

I wont waste my time responding.

Muskyman, it's not a personal attack - nor do I profess to know everything. I do like to try to understand how things work.

In the case of differentials and traction control systems, I am quite knowledgeable. I have given this matter (which is ultimately a matter of fact, not a value judgement or opinion) a lot of thought, and tried to do some specific experiments to discover what the facts are.

I might be wrong, and if so, someone will come along and tell me what is wrong with my understanding of the mechanics, and why my experiments don't hold water.

Or I might be right, and even you could learn something.
 
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michaelgroves

Explorer
Here's a video of me going up Dishpan Springs trail near Big Bear, in a DII. Rear lockers are recommended for this section however my DII has open diffs, no locker except CDL and no traction control. The ABS modulator needs to be replaced.

I was spinning the tries the first few attempts, but then tried left-brake-throttle-modulation and was able to get enough traction to climb through. The video doesn't show my foot action but I can definitely tell that LBTM made the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApZ2KKQFsR0

I accept all anecdotal evidence as being sincere and I accept it at face value. However, in the light of how a differential works (and the way brakes work), the only plausible explanation of such anecdotes that I can think of, is that the use of the brakes moderates power delivery, quite often to advantage. (Also subsequent attempts at obstacles are often more successful than the first attempts!)

I am not trying to sound patronising, but a) I have all but proved that an open diff mechanism can't deliver significantly more (useful) torque if both wheels are equally braked, and b) performed and described a simple and repeatable experiment that contradicts the proposition.

I'd welcome flaws being pointed out on either front.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
So if I believed that this technique worked, I would still be trying to understand why.
well I guess this says it all...you know everything and are not open to discussion.

I wont waste my time responding.

Hahaha! I just realised why you thought I was not open to discussion. My phrasing was ambiguous. I meant "even if I believed the technique worked, I would be trying to understand why"! Whereas you presumably read that as "if I believed the technique worked, only then would I be trying to understand why."

Sorry about that.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Here's one of the simple experiments I did, with a series Land Rover, in 2WD, and then the same with a Disco 1 (centre diff unlocked):

I jacked up one of the back wheels, using a trolley jack with casters, on a smooth concrete floor. Then I just put the car in various gears, and experimented with different brake/throttle techniques.

Result?

The Series truck didn't move at all. If there had been any positive effect from the BTM, it was completely offset by the front wheels being braked at the same time.

The Discovery jerked a little bit back and forth on the castered jack. I doubt it would have fallen off its own bottle jack, except perhaps on some of the more extreme wheel-spinning/slamming-on-the-brake attempts. (Incidentally, I also tried this with a front and a rear wheel up on castered jacks, and the centre diff both locked and unlocked).

This was more or less in line with what I would have predicted. Certainly there was no significant or systematic increase in driving force induced by BTM, else the car would have been driven forwards quite easily. I attribute the rocking/jerking to uneven braking forces and some internal friction in the diffs.

The good thing about this experiment is that it is easily repeatable. If anyone is intersted, by all means try it for yourself.

Interesting to hear you've done this experiment, as it demonstrates the point. I'm with you on this, I can't see how brake application would help an open diff vehicle. In the case you mention, when the vehicle rocked back and forth, the explanation is simple:

As the wheel in the air accelerates, it's rotational inertia does present some torsional resistance on the axle, which does get passed through onto the other wheel which would then receive some torque which is what rocked the vehicle.
 

oonimog

Adventurer
Interesting debate. Michael, retry your experiment but instead use a vehicle that has the parking brakes on the wheels rather than the driveshaft, as on your Rover. Instead of applying the service brakes, slowly apply the parking brake as you gradually apply power. Let us know the result.

Pete
 
H

Hank

Guest
Michael,
Do you have the LT-230? If so, try this and you'll see what Thom is saying.

-With the center diff unlocked, find a grassy hill steep enough that you'll loose traction.
-Drive onto that hill and stop half way
-With no foot on the brake, try to start moving forward again (hopefully the hill you've chosen is steep enough, or slick enough, that you cannot make it without locking the CDL)
-Once your tires break traction, start to apply the brake gently while continuing to press the accelerator. See what happens.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
I am not talking in theory here...it does help.

Yes, left foot braking can provide some traction. I have used it with positive (though marginal) effect on the Discovery (5-speed), and with greater effect on a Grand Cherokee with an automatic. In the most simplified example, the effect is torque equalization, similar to, but less effective than traction control, where a spinning tire can be arrested completely by the brakes, and no brake pressure is applied to the stationary tire. Applying brake force begins to equalize the resistance to both axles of the differential, and if the grade or obstacle does not have greater resistance, you can get some forward motion.

It can, and does work, but to very limited effect based on my experience.
 

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