Car Purchase with eye towards first child

[brngk]

Hi all, could really use some advice on our upcoming car purchase (DD/travel rig). I'm currently a graduate student finishing a PhD, wife is recently "retired" from science and is pursuing writing full time (e.g money is fairly tight). We've both always been avid explorers and between us have seen most of the planet. When stateside or in Mexico, we've always traveled with a little escort wagon, including a fair number of Baja's back roads (yes that was me :sombrero: ). At any rate, we're planning for our first offspring, and with 260K on our current car, and reliability issues cropping up we're shopping around. This car will primarily be tossed around southern Arizona back-roads for the next few years, with semi regular excursions into Sonora and CO,UT,NM,So Cal.

Here are some considerations

1. I walk to work, and in general we never drive, unless we're going on an adventure to the outdoors or grocery shopping. Our trips range from a few days to 3 weeks, and have never involved any serious rock crawling. Some Stream crossings have turned us back, moderate rutting is the worst we've encountered to date.
2. ~20 mpg or higher would be nice.
3. At 6'5" and a 190 lbs, I'm not exactly the smallest guy. The escorts been ok, but after a couple of hours of driving I'm not exactly loving it.
4. Roof top tent has already been budgeted for, though other than beefier tires we won't have much more $$ to put into this car.
5. We aren't buying anything new, simply can't afford it.
6. One concern is rear seat room, given the space taken up by modern child seats, and having a tall driver.
7. I'm guessing for the first couple of years no trips beyond 2 weeks (which is more of a work limitation)
8. Safety is a must, Tucson drivers are horrendous, and I've seen far too many accidents and barely avoided god knows how many.
9. I really really hate awkward parking lot maneuvers
10. While I consider myself a tinkerer and have done my share of repairs on this car, I'd rather avoid it, due to school/work load.

That being said, the short list so far (looking in the $12k range). Consider 2003-2007 models of the following, though any additional suggestions are much appreciated. REALLY looking forward to something more reliable.

• Suzuki Grand Vitara. Decent economy, great transferable warranty, and 4Lo option (though rear storage sucks)
• 4runner, this seems like a good pick, as long as I avoid ones with sunroofs (loose 2" headroom). Vintage we're looking at is
  probably a bit beyond our budget =(.
• RAV4 V6, great economy, ok boot space, but seems limited when it comes to offroad duty, and we know some people who've had problems with theirs.
• Jeep Patriot. FDII models seems hard to find used, and there are questions about reliability
• Outback/Forester. Seemed great for front legroom, and fuel economy is definitely good. Like the high safety ratings, but have heard reliability has taken a hit recently. Lots of complaints about fitting a rear facing car seat make me less than enthusiastic about this. Also, ground clearance is meh.

Thoughts and suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

[nbleak21]

I drove Forester 2.5 XT for a couple of weeks and it was a great little vehicle. excellent utility of space, handled very well, loved the AWD acceleration feel (of which it had plenty of get-up and go!) and the boxer engines are pretty darn reliable if maintained well.

That being said, when we were looking for a new vehicle that would work for our first born, I ended up going with an XJ cherokee. More capable offroad, decent fuel mileage if driven properly, the venerable 4.0L engine... list goes on and on.. oh, and did I mention price difference? The 02 forester with similar miles to the 2000 cherokee, was on the high side of $6k more.

Yes, It was nice, it was modern, had all the luxuries such as leather interior, sunroof, etc... but that $6k will be better spent on adventures then it will sitting in the sheet metal itself.

 

[Honu]

used to have a suzuki grand viagra

great rig and did super well off road ! forgot our year but about a 2005 or so the true frame ones and we had 1 kid then and plenty of room for basic stuff
some aftermarket stuff also available
compared to the others the suzuki are very reliable my old samurai never had issues and the reason we called it the viagra was it was so hard and strong all the time
wife liked to drive it better than our tacoma 4x4 dual cab as it was easier to park etc..

I think for me it would be the subaru or the suzuki depending on what you like to drive better ?

if you are leaning toward a better offroad rig then the suzuki would be my pic if you want a more road friendly then the subaru might be my pick ?

in your #4 post with the tent ? I might say the suzuki as beefier tires etc.. and a tent will work and look better and I remember seeing a few small lifts for the suzukis that were nice setups

 

[washington taco]

Look for a third gen 4 Runner 2002 over a 100,000 miles with proof of the timing belt change and you can drive to 200,000 with little maintenance!

 

[GroupSe7en]

Find somebody with a 3yr old and see how much front-to-back space is required to fit them in their car seat. You'll be shocked. Some things to look out for are a rear seat that is too upright because in order to get the car seat comfortable you have to recline it some. That eats up about 6 inches of your back seat. We just sold our Frontier Crew Cab because we just couldn't shove our 2 1/2 year old into the back seat anymore. Plus we're thinking we might need to dump our Suzuki Areo because the little guy just keeps growing.

I know you're thinking infants and rear-facing car seats, but, you'll really only use one for 6-9 months. If you want to keep your new car for a while, borrow a friends kid and take their car seat with you when you go shopping.

Thinking ahead, how many kids are you planning on? I wasn't thinking about the car at all when we had our 3rd until I tried to fit the 3rd car seat in the back - Oh-oh! Had to buy a Suburban because it was the only thing wide enough to fit 3 car seats side-by-side.

Also, get something big enough that you can easily get them in and out of it. You have no idea what a pain it is leaning into the car to squeeze a 30 lb kid (wearing a winter coat) into a too-small space - in the rain.

I would suggest waiting a bit until you've got some parenting experience under your belts and then you'll know a lot more about what makes sense for you.

6'5" and car seats - you might need to buy a bus. LOL

Good luck,
Mark

 

[troy]

I agree with what's stated above. I don't own one, but have been impressed with the Suzuki community and knowledge there. try poking around www.zuwharrie.com Mostly samurai based, but still lots of info on Grand-Vs. They are a simple truck, but a good value in my opinion.

You mentioned complaints on the rear-facing car seats in the Subaru, but just realize that kids are only in those for 1 - 1 1/2 years. The only rig that would be comfortable for you (6 foot+) with one, is a fullsize like a suburban. We have a rear facer right now and my wife's mazda is miserable and my XJ is tolerable, and the seat can only be put in the middle so it protrudes between the front seats a little.

You're coming from an escort wagon, so do you really want a truck-based SUV? Car-based will almost always win in Mpgs.

I have an XJ and two little ones (1yr and 3yr). It has worked well for me an it is not too big. They might be a little old for your needs, but have you thought about a Jeep Grand Cherokee, specifically 2002-2004? It'll be in your price range, 2002-2004 have the best reliablility of all years (especially with V8). V8 models still get near 20 mpg on highway, and they are small enough to park easily.

I like the idea of a 4 runner, but i think it would be pushing your budget to get a new enough/low mileage unit.

BTW - kids really make exploring fun. You'll notice things you would have passed by before. Everyting gets simplified and more complicated at the same time. It's fun.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I would also steer you towards a Grand Cherokee.

If you go with the V8, in the 99-04 (WJ) models you can get about 24 mpg, which is amazing for that thing. (Important note the V8 gets FAR BETTER mileage than the I6, so be sure you get the BIGGER engine, this is because the engine was totally redesigned for this jeep, but the 6 was the same until the next model GC) I made the mistake of getting the I-6 and I get about 17 in town. My folks had the v8 and they were the ones who told me about the higher rating.

I too am 6'5, and about 245lbs, so, I can tell you that I fit very comfortably in that rig.

Take only $150 and buy yourself a Tera-flex 2"budget boost lift, and you will have a great truck that will take you where you want to go. Be sure you note where the air intake is so you know if you can pass a stream or not. Otherwise you could always go with a snorkel.

By the way, there is a simple modification that you can do to the seats in the rear which allow me to sleep in the back of my jeep WJ very comfortably.

I have a 2.5 year old and we put him in the middle of the rear seat when he was rear facing. This is, in part, because it is safer there. We got the Chico systems car seat, and we got the bigger one, so it was a little harder to fit behind the seat, but we could do it if we wanted. My wife is only 5'10, and she would have to move her seat up a touch, but it was fine. Now that he is front facing she could slide her seat all the way back, but he is getting taller and she wanted him to have more leg room. By the way I fit in the seat behind me very comfortably, but the child in the car seat, his legs end up pointing more straight out than would an adult.

Another point to putting the seat in the middle. It is easy to still stick it in from either side, but it is also easy to mess with the child from both front seats. (like putting a pacifier in, or giving the child a bottle.)

Another rig you might be able to look into would be an M-class Benz. They are super nice, and they have the air ride shocks that can lift the truck 3" on demand. Plus you can get an good older one for in your price range very easily.


Good luck in your decision.

 

[shogun]

Here are some considerations

1. I walk to work, and in general we never drive, unless we're going on an adventure to the outdoors or grocery shopping. Our trips range from a few days to 3 weeks, and have never involved any serious rock crawling. Some Stream crossings have turned us back, moderate rutting is the worst we've encountered to date.
2. ~20 mpg or higher would be nice.
3. At 6'5" and a 190 lbs, I'm not exactly the smallest guy. The escorts been ok, but after a couple of hours of driving I'm not exactly loving it.
4. Roof top tent has already been budgeted for, though other than beefier tires we won't have much more $$ to put into this car.
5. We aren't buying anything new, simply can't afford it.
6. One concern is rear seat room, given the space taken up by modern child seats, and having a tall driver.
7. I'm guessing for the first couple of years no trips beyond 2 weeks (which is more of a work limitation)
8. Safety is a must, Tucson drivers are horrendous, and I've seen far too many accidents and barely avoided god knows how many.
9. I really really hate awkward parking lot maneuvers
10. While I consider myself a tinkerer and have done my share of repairs on this car, I'd rather avoid it, due to school/work load.

Some of your criteria are generic vehicle issues that cant be solved due to competing demands.

Safety means no airbags wherever the offspring may sit during the ownership of the vehicle.

Parking issues mean reasonable visibilty and power steering. You may have visibility issues with any of the cute-utes mentioned, but I've never driven them.

Easy/cheap repairs mean older vehicle with simple systems, which is competing demand.

Rear seat room is another competing demand.

Off-raod ability means a real 4wd system with minimum mods/upgrades. Just because the cute-ute says 4wd doesnt mean its worth anything other than "mall-rated". Also consider a popular 4wd model due to availability and cost of parts/upgrades (try finding 5 choices for lift kits for the subaru).

RTT may not work on the cute-utes mentioned.

Social acceptability is a problem you have to deal with amongst the aquaintances/coworkers and whether you allow them to dictate your purchase decisions.

Offspring considerations; get a four door anything. You will be in and out of the back seat alot and your concern is doing it quickly (like diapers) and with minimum discomfort(a lift is really to make it easier to do the belts, not for off-roading). As mentioned, the rear-facing seat is temporary (unfortunately). Place the offspring where you can easily see it, to check for "issues" (not necessarily right behind you). Look for three-point rear seat belts, and most vehicles now have LATCH (which is inconvenient). Get a good seat, not a cheap attractive one, the three way stroller/carrier/carseat ones are a good first seat. Dont ever let the words "carsick" cross your lips.

Specifics based on my experience?
XJs are very inexpensive, available, easy to work on, more or less invisable, good off-raod out of the box with many aftermarket parts available. Good cargo space, easy to drive, good vis (get it tinted). Motors last many miles if minimally cared for. A friend got one for DD and offspring transport, kept it stock, and it works for him.

The other jeeps (wrangler/tj/ whatever they're called) are good also, with obvious cargo limitations. But then you have the social limitations mentioned above (they may not like it). Heck, get the 4 cyl to make them happy. Lots of parts, good seat room, cheap/easy to fix. Two-door limitations also.

The forrester is getting good reviews, but I dont think you'll get a RTT on it, or lift it, or get through some of the wash crossings with it. But you will definately keep the colleagues happy.

 

[05LR3AZ]

What to choose?

The first vehicle that came to mind when I started reading your intro was 'Subaru'. The fuel economy and space in these seems to stand out.

I've owned a 4Runner which I highly recommend. I got 200k out of mine with very little concern! Great reliability and definite off-road potential. Of the vehicles you listed it seems that it is better suited to a RTT also. There's no need to start modifying it immediately, maybe tires and your RTT and call it good. I'm sure there are some that fit within your budget (bargain tough!)

Have fun!

 

[R_Lefebvre]

The child seating and cost issues are why we bought a minivan. It's the ONLY vehicle that is cheap to purchase and run that easily takes car seats, and has tons of storage in the back.

Just sayin.

Our LWB Montana has an over 500 mile range with a 25 gallon fuel tank. Can store anything we throw at it, and there's plenty of room for car seats. And it's as off-road capable as your Escort.

I can't get a rear facing car seat into our Land Rover. Luckily Elise is already 20 lbs, so we can legally turn her around and can start using the truck soon.

 

[Honu]

correction I think our suzuki was more like a 2003 or so but two years before they swtiched off the true fame models
also the islands used to get ones you cant get on the mainland ? with dif options basically but the basics were the same as the mainland U.S. ones


one thing I can say I had a lot of friends with jeeps ? and while I like them they were always seeming to have small issues things like door handles falling off to strange issues that were making it run funny or quit starting etc.. and a few large ones like new transmission etc.. but every one of my buds who had a jeep had it in the shop at one time or another ? the two suzukis I had and a few friends that had them never went to the shop the only thing I did was change the oil kept up the fluids and got new tires when needed they were very very reliable

 

[The Adam Blaster]

I have experience, just eye-ball criticisms... In regards to a "car" and putting the young'uns in the back seat -- I'd see a lot of sore backs from bending over.
I like SUV's or vans for that duty, less chance of back strain.

I do like Subarus though, despite never owning one myself. They seem to have a pretty good reputation for longevity.
When the kids are a bit older, and they can climb into the boosters seats themselves, the Subie would be a good option.


And Rob, I've just started to strongly consider getting a Dodge Grand Caravan for my daily driving and family travelling duties. I'm going to sell the '02 Durango and when I get the cash from that, start looking for a used Gr. Car.
I really like the D. but it doesn't do everything I need it to do, and it's not the greatest on gas. The Gr. Car. can also hold a 4x8 sheet of building material with the seats folded down, that's something I want to be able to do with my next vehicle.

Plus, I've never felt the stigma of a minivan, my dad has had 5 of them over the years, so it was my highschool transport vehicle. It can hold A LOT of camping gear behind the 2nd row of seats!

 

[haven]

"I see a lot of sore backs from bending over. I like SUV's or vans for that duty, less chance of back strain."

x2. Take a car seat to the dealership and see how much the parents-to-be have to bend over when helping a kid to get buckled in. If you have to bend much, look for a taller vehicle. Your back will thank you many times each week.

I also recommend adjusting the front seat, then checking how much room is available for the infant car seat, which has the child riding backwards. That car seat is a lot longer than the ride-facing-forward model.

Since each outing with a small child includes all sorts of stuff, a vehicle with lots of cargo room is a must. Imagine two moms and their offspring going to the park. They practically need a U-Haul. So get a large vehicle.

Check out the Ford Flex. Lots of room, decent mpg, no minivan stigma. For the two or three times a year you need 4x4, rent a Tahoe.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Yes, the Flex is actually an excellent vehicle. It has more rear seat "legroom" (read: babyseat room) than pretty much anything. It's AMAZING. And, no "minivan stigma".

However, my wife LOVED the van when she was 8 months pregnant and schlepping the 4 year old around in the car. Since the door slides completely out of the way... no bending over to do up his buckles. It makes a big difference.

I think the move away from minivans and into SUV's/Crossovers is just ridiculous. How silly. Since when was carting a family around supposed to be about looking cool? Or rather, why is choosing the most suitable vehicle for a mission uncool? I don't understand how "wasting" a 4x4 vehicle by using it to cart your kids to the mall is so much cooler.

 

[The Adam Blaster]

I think the move away from minivans and into SUV's/Crossovers is just ridiculous. How silly. Since when was carting a family around supposed to be about looking cool? Or rather, why is choosing the most suitable vehicle for a mission uncool? I don't understand how "wasting" a 4x4 vehicle by using it to cart your kids to the mall is so much cooler.

10000000% agree with you on these points!
The only reason we have a Pontiac Torrent is because my wife was less than logical about our needs with the little one coming along, and "wasn't ready" to drive a minivan just yet.
Now the little guy is 2, and with all the stuff of his that she likes to take with us, she's ready to concede to a minivan.
I wish she would have been ready 2 years ago, would have saved us a decent chunk of change.