gary in ohio
Explorer
When do we get the diesel ????
2011 Wrangler rollout this summer
- Thread starter haven
- Start date
Root Moose
Expedition Leader
Don't hold your breath.
jeepdreamer
Expedition Leader
My ignorant question...sorry
So, since there seem to be some stealthy industry folks stalking around this thread I'd like a little information please...?
Why...are there no diesels comming to the US!?!?! What, specifically, is it about the emissions that won't allow it to pass and why can THAT not be fixed? I may be just an ignorant "average Joe" but I know enough to realize that a diesel getting almost 2x the mpgs, more torque, longer lasting, and reliable SHOULD be a fantastic answer to trying to squeeze mpgs from a gasser!?! Yet we (as a country and just as jeep folks) have done little or nothing to advance or "push" the diesel option in the states. WHY!??! And I will avoid a tirade of ignoring the applications of BIOdiesel...
And as a side note...what is the hold up with bringning a Euro-spec, diesel powered JK stateside? What I mean is this...Pretend someone had the money to fly to Europe, buy a brand new Diesel JK (with manual tranny :wings
and import it for their own use in the states...Anyone know the easiest way to go about this??? Or is there some 100 foot tall "G-man" that will crawl from the earth to pick up a new diesel and throw it accross the pond!?!
I just don't get it..:littlefriend:
So, since there seem to be some stealthy industry folks stalking around this thread I'd like a little information please...?
Why...are there no diesels comming to the US!?!?! What, specifically, is it about the emissions that won't allow it to pass and why can THAT not be fixed? I may be just an ignorant "average Joe" but I know enough to realize that a diesel getting almost 2x the mpgs, more torque, longer lasting, and reliable SHOULD be a fantastic answer to trying to squeeze mpgs from a gasser!?! Yet we (as a country and just as jeep folks) have done little or nothing to advance or "push" the diesel option in the states. WHY!??! And I will avoid a tirade of ignoring the applications of BIOdiesel...
And as a side note...what is the hold up with bringning a Euro-spec, diesel powered JK stateside? What I mean is this...Pretend someone had the money to fly to Europe, buy a brand new Diesel JK (with manual tranny :wings
and import it for their own use in the states...Anyone know the easiest way to go about this??? Or is there some 100 foot tall "G-man" that will crawl from the earth to pick up a new diesel and throw it accross the pond!?!I just don't get it..:littlefriend:
alosix
Expedition Leader
So, since there seem to be some stealthy industry folks stalking around this thread I'd like a little information please...?
Why...are there no diesels comming to the US!?!?! What, specifically, is it about the emissions that won't allow it to pass and why can THAT not be fixed? I may be just an ignorant "average Joe" but I know enough to realize that a diesel getting almost 2x the mpgs, more torque, longer lasting, and reliable SHOULD be a fantastic answer to trying to squeeze mpgs from a gasser!?! Yet we (as a country and just as jeep folks) have done little or nothing to advance or "push" the diesel option in the states. WHY!??! And I will avoid a tirade of ignoring the applications of BIOdiesel...
And as a side note...what is the hold up with bringning a Euro-spec, diesel powered JK stateside? What I mean is this...Pretend someone had the money to fly to Europe, buy a brand new Diesel JK (with manual tranny :wings
I just don't get it..:littlefriend:
There is no logic to the laws man.. You must accept that first
Our NOx and particulate matter regulations are much tighter than the current Euro specs. The NOx regs mostly force a catalytic converter to be added (curiously swaps NOx + some stuff to CO2 + some stuff(take that Al Gore)).
If you go check the newer diesels that actually make it to the US, the VW stuff has found a way around having a particulate matter filter. The bigger trucks however are running them as well as the 'spray' system (can't remember the name off hand). If you go checking places like the turbo diesel register or the dodge boards you'll find that the last few years of dodge trucks got a ton more emissions stuff and barely get better fuel mileage than their gas counterparts now.
Importing a Diesel JK is just asking for it to get seized and crushed. Google 'Nissan Skyline gray market import' if you want some examples of what could happen.
Getting the Euro JK drivetrain and swapping may be doable depending on what state you live in. Its quite the gray area. It breaks a bunch of EPA regulations but there really isn't an arm of the EPA that goes out and enforces things on an individual basis. That sort of stuff is mostly left up to the states. If you happen to live in a state with a low 'enviro-commie' count you might be able to get it registered. (check out the JK for sale in GA for an example). In my current state (CA) I'd probably be strung up by the short hairs for doing something like that. I'd love to have that Jeep, but just can't here.
Now, there is a bit of a light at the end of the tunnel. Mixing a lot of the newer Gas engine technologies together you will soon have somethign colse to diesel performance out of a gas engine, though probably not that loved durability.
The next engine plans for the JK have one that is capable of being turbo charged and being direct injected. The direct injection (spraying fuel into the cylinder as opposed the intake) allows a gas engine to have a much higher compression ratio and run more boost without detonation problems.
I'd still love a diesel though... I think our only hope of seeing small diesels in the US now lies with Mahindra and their pickup. If it comes over finally and sells well it might get Jeep to give us an updated version of the Euro engine in the JK. Until then.. We'll just have to wait and see.
stonehenge
Observer
the thing that would concern me most is whenever vehicle manufacturers start to "civilize" a vehicle they lose sight of things like stronger axles and steering components. adding nice touches in the interior is one thing but if the new owners dont understand the brand and what the people who actually use them (small percentage) want we as off roaders start to lose things like bigger tie rod ends and stronger steering boxes and ball joints that can go 40K miles instead of 10. be careful what you wish for and hope that the brand team is left alone to enhance it in a 360 degree way rather than making it a "soccer mom" car.
kenallwine
Adventurer
The company I work for is a partner with Chrysler (3rd tier supplier). I was at their new engine plant close to Detroit for some trouble shooting on the equipment that machines the head for the new V6. If this is the same engine that will be in the wrangler, they are having some manufacturing issues. The plant is amazing though. They are not in full production yet either on the engine. I think they were only making 40-50 engine per day and only running 1st shift.
They also have a second plant in Mexico that is going through the start up process as well.
Here is what I was working on:
They also have a second plant in Mexico that is going through the start up process as well.
Here is what I was working on:
"Why...are there no diesels comming to the US?"
Here are a couple of reasons.
1. The big run-up in diesel fuel prices in 2008 left a lot of dealers with unsold inventory. Very few people wanted a diesel truck when diesel fuel cost 50 cents more per gallon than gas. Diesel fuel prices are heading up once again.
2. Diesel engine emissions controls are in their infancy. They cost a lot more to add to a diesel engine than comparable controls for a gas engine. Emission controls for gasoline engines have a 35 year head start, so they are more refined and less expensive.
3. New technology for gas engines gives them power and torque that approach the level of a diesel engine. Direct injection, coupled with turbocharging and variable valve timing, can produce a wide torque band. These new engines are cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to equip withemissions controls than diesels.
4. Diesel still has a bad reputation with passenger car customers. GM's debacle in the 1980s and Jeep's problems with the diesel Liberty in 2005 are two examples.
5. While diesel engines are found in virtually all heavy and medium trucks, there is low demand for diesel engines for light trucks and passenger cars. VW and Mercedes sell more diesel cars than any other manufacturers in North America, and diesel is only about 30% of their overall sales. (Diesel sells well in certain models, e.g., the Jetta wagon.)
With low demand for diesel, there's little reason for Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and other manufacturers that sell high quality small diesel engines in other markets, to bother with the expense of adding diesel to their North American lineup. Expenses include managing inventory, stocking parts and training dealership personnel.
The next manufacturer planning to offer a new diesel model in USA is Mahindra and Mahindra. Their new SUV and mid-size pickup will be available exclusively with diesel power. You can bet that other manufacturers will be watching what happens to sales of these new diesels.
6. Tax policy on diesel fuel is different in USA than in Europe and other parts of the world. Diesel is taxed about 6 cents more per gallon than gasoline is taxed. Elsewhere, diesel is taxed less, so it costs less to fill up.
7. Chrysler, the parent company of Jeep, is strapped for cash. They can't take a chance on an engine technology that won't appeal to many customers. It's a lot cheaper (and safer) to develop a better gasoline powered Wrangler than it is to experiment with diesel in North America. Sure, a diesel Wrangler would be on the cover of all the off-road magazines, but I don't think it would translate into increased sales. People who want a diesel Wrangler would still buy a Wrangler regardless.
Chrysler did try to introduce diesel to the Jeep lineup. The Mercedes 3.0L V6 diesel was offered in the Grand Cherokee for several years, but it wasn't popular. The VM Motori 2.8L 4 cylinder diesel was sold in the Liberty for two years, but it was plagued with emissions control problems (mostly EGR valve issues) and transmission repairs (the diesel had too much torque for the transmission). Liberty owners were covered under warranty, but repairs often took more than a week. Overall, the diesel Liberty was a public relations nightmare.
So I think Chrysler will stay away from diesel powered Jeeps for a while.
It remains to be seen if Fiat, Chrysler's new parent company, wants to try to introduce its diesels to North America. My guess is that they will stick with the Multi-Air gasoline powerplants at first.
Chip Haven
Here are a couple of reasons.
1. The big run-up in diesel fuel prices in 2008 left a lot of dealers with unsold inventory. Very few people wanted a diesel truck when diesel fuel cost 50 cents more per gallon than gas. Diesel fuel prices are heading up once again.
2. Diesel engine emissions controls are in their infancy. They cost a lot more to add to a diesel engine than comparable controls for a gas engine. Emission controls for gasoline engines have a 35 year head start, so they are more refined and less expensive.
3. New technology for gas engines gives them power and torque that approach the level of a diesel engine. Direct injection, coupled with turbocharging and variable valve timing, can produce a wide torque band. These new engines are cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to equip withemissions controls than diesels.
4. Diesel still has a bad reputation with passenger car customers. GM's debacle in the 1980s and Jeep's problems with the diesel Liberty in 2005 are two examples.
5. While diesel engines are found in virtually all heavy and medium trucks, there is low demand for diesel engines for light trucks and passenger cars. VW and Mercedes sell more diesel cars than any other manufacturers in North America, and diesel is only about 30% of their overall sales. (Diesel sells well in certain models, e.g., the Jetta wagon.)
With low demand for diesel, there's little reason for Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and other manufacturers that sell high quality small diesel engines in other markets, to bother with the expense of adding diesel to their North American lineup. Expenses include managing inventory, stocking parts and training dealership personnel.
The next manufacturer planning to offer a new diesel model in USA is Mahindra and Mahindra. Their new SUV and mid-size pickup will be available exclusively with diesel power. You can bet that other manufacturers will be watching what happens to sales of these new diesels.
6. Tax policy on diesel fuel is different in USA than in Europe and other parts of the world. Diesel is taxed about 6 cents more per gallon than gasoline is taxed. Elsewhere, diesel is taxed less, so it costs less to fill up.
7. Chrysler, the parent company of Jeep, is strapped for cash. They can't take a chance on an engine technology that won't appeal to many customers. It's a lot cheaper (and safer) to develop a better gasoline powered Wrangler than it is to experiment with diesel in North America. Sure, a diesel Wrangler would be on the cover of all the off-road magazines, but I don't think it would translate into increased sales. People who want a diesel Wrangler would still buy a Wrangler regardless.
Chrysler did try to introduce diesel to the Jeep lineup. The Mercedes 3.0L V6 diesel was offered in the Grand Cherokee for several years, but it wasn't popular. The VM Motori 2.8L 4 cylinder diesel was sold in the Liberty for two years, but it was plagued with emissions control problems (mostly EGR valve issues) and transmission repairs (the diesel had too much torque for the transmission). Liberty owners were covered under warranty, but repairs often took more than a week. Overall, the diesel Liberty was a public relations nightmare.
So I think Chrysler will stay away from diesel powered Jeeps for a while.
It remains to be seen if Fiat, Chrysler's new parent company, wants to try to introduce its diesels to North America. My guess is that they will stick with the Multi-Air gasoline powerplants at first.
Chip Haven
RedRocker
Adventurer
Thanks for that reply, lots of good information that makes sense.
The Grand was the wrong choice for a diesel IMHO, I think it would be
a hit in the Wrangler.
alosix
Expedition Leader
That has always bugged me. If any US manufacturer could think of a perfect vehicle to attempt a diesel comeback it would be the Wrangler line. So what does DC (then) do? They try it out in everything but the Wrangler.
Granted, they are on gov life support right now so I guess they made a few other bad decisions as well.
Jason
jingram
Adventurer
Well that is a catch 22 for Chrysler... the Jeep Wrangler is the most profitable and highest selling of all the vehicles in the Jeep line up. They can't afford to make a mistake and screw up the roll out of a new powerplant with their highest volume product. It would be a PR nightmare and hurt sales.
Flip side to that is they have already conditioned Jeep owners to it being a "Jeep thing" and I think Jeep owners are by far the absolute most forgiving customers that any manufacturer has today. Some of the stuff that people put up with after reading stories on JK Owners and JK Forum astounds me.
The thing is of course, that all of this is a bit irrelevant. This is not a new product segment for Jeep. They have been making a Wrangler with a diesel powerplant for years now. I think that is why it hurts so much. They already produce the product we want here in the United States and ship them abroad. They have the product we want and refuse to sell it to us, and yet it is manufactured in our own back yard.
Idiotic if you ask me. Hell, they could mark up the product and only allow you to have it serviced at select dealerships and in select markets and it would still sell!!
Flip side to that is they have already conditioned Jeep owners to it being a "Jeep thing" and I think Jeep owners are by far the absolute most forgiving customers that any manufacturer has today. Some of the stuff that people put up with after reading stories on JK Owners and JK Forum astounds me.
The thing is of course, that all of this is a bit irrelevant. This is not a new product segment for Jeep. They have been making a Wrangler with a diesel powerplant for years now. I think that is why it hurts so much. They already produce the product we want here in the United States and ship them abroad. They have the product we want and refuse to sell it to us, and yet it is manufactured in our own back yard.
Idiotic if you ask me. Hell, they could mark up the product and only allow you to have it serviced at select dealerships and in select markets and it would still sell!!
alosix
Expedition Leader
I used to hurt worse when I lived in MD. If I had to go through the 895 tunnel you can see a lot full of diesel JKs sitting there ready to export. So close, yet so far away.
Piet
Adventurer
Or you could buy this one now! (It makes me drool)
http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=1690
http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=1690
Backwoods Rambler
Explorer
If that doesn't say it all right there, I don't know what would. A guy pays big bucks for the custom conversion (the setup that so many say they would "die" for) and what does he do? He tries to sell it for a Brute (understandable I suppose) a 2dr JK (getting weird) or a TJ!?!?!? ******? :Wow1: Something's not right with this picture. :snorkel:
Jeep has officially announced the changes to the Wrangler for 2011. Those changes include
inside
-- redesigned instrument panel
-- updated armrests and center console
-- steering wheel mounted audio, cruise and hands free phone controls
-- media center accepts USB and bluetooth connections
-- more 12V accessory outlets
-- 110V AC power outlet (optional)
-- better silencing materials to reduce engine and road noise
outside
-- heated power adjustable mirrors optional
-- larger rear windows
-- new colors: Detonator Yellow, Deep Cherry Red, Sahara Tan, Cosmos Blue and Bright White (aka ExPo White).
top
-- Sahara models of Wrangler and Unlimited get body-color hardtop
The Chrysler press release is here
http://media.chrysler.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=3B4E6AB0C8E630FDD7D3516DF77A96CE?&id=9875&mid=2
Prices for 2011 Wrangler models are going up about $900, not including destination charge.
Sport $22,795
Sahara $27,995
Rubicon $29,995
Unlimited Sport $26,295
Unlimited Sahara $30,695
Unlimited Rubicon $33,495