Fiscal & operational robustness

[tkj23qe1387]

Hi all,

I am sure that many of you saw the news of earthcruiser’s wind up. Considering the nontrivial chance that moderate-high interest rates and supply chain challenges might persist, I wonder if anyone could chime in on who the fiscally and operationally robust builders are.

Robust = stable if subject to perturbation or interference

Fiscal =
* steady order/cash flow
* conservative leverage
* reliable warranty/service (this is a proxy variable)

Operational =
* build is somewhat standardized (at least fully simulated before build)
* continuity of features & design language
* build flow is not critically dependent on any single person
* on-time delivery

I can only think of bliss mobil. Maybe earthroamer? Unicat is phenomenal but so dependent on the founder.

Feel free to add more factors!

 

[tkj23qe1387]

Adding one factor to fiscal list: fair & phased payment schedule commensurate with build progress

 

[waveslider]

Without access to said company's detailed financial statements, intimate knowledge of their production schedule and personnel and direct experience with their after-sale support (which some current owners could attest to but would be anecdotal) - - any commentary on your areas of inquiry is limited to conjecture and/or speculation.

EDIT: Or worse.....marketing puffery

 

[gdaut]

I do not know about any specific builders; but if I was was having a new expensive camper built I would try this (I am not an attorney so maybe this would not work): But the truck yourself; title it in your name; deliver it (or have it delivered) to the builder. Set it up that the builder is being paid to perform modifications to your truck, with periodic payments for that work. That way, if the builder ends up in bankruptcy, maybe you can get you partially built (but only partially paid for) camper. You would still have to get someone to complete it, but that is better than being a creditor.

Or buy a pre-Roamed Earthroamer. They usually have some that are practically new for sale. Write them a (big) check and drive it off the lot.

 

[driveby]

One could argue that EarthCruiser would have filled all your operational needs above and from the outside looking in, also the financial warranty point. So as Waveslider noted, we as outsiders can't make any real assessments. 2 months ago I would have said EC was stable and would survive. Having said that the really big players in the RV/Boat world will survive, parts of them will die off but the Co will live. I think the market may shift to what gdaut is saying *or* no payments at all till final delivery - similar to a dealer model.

 

[tkj23qe1387]

I do not know about any specific builders; but if I was was having a new expensive camper built I would try this (I am not an attorney so maybe this would not work): But the truck yourself; title it in your name; deliver it (or have it delivered) to the builder. Set it up that the builder is being paid to perform modifications to your truck, with periodic payments for that work. That way, if the builder ends up in bankruptcy, maybe you can get you partially built (but only partially paid for) camper. You would still have to get someone to complete it, but that is better than being a creditor.

Or buy a pre-Roamed Earthroamer. They usually have some that are practically new for sale. Write them a (big) check and drive it off the lot.

Yeah this is a very messy area of law when bankruptcy kicks in, but I think you are definitely on the right path… need to look at how custom home builds are handled.

I am just baffled that a $300k+ purchase (terranova is 350k+) does not give the buyer any security in the event of bankruptcy.

 

[Ozarker]

Yeah this is a very messy area of law when bankruptcy kicks in, but I think you are definitely on the right path… need to look at how custom home builds are handled.

I am just baffled that a $300k+ purchase (terranova is 350k+) does not give the buyer any security in the event of bankruptcy.

You'd think that people who are smart enough to have such disposable income would be smart enough to protect themselves in such a major purchase. If they have the ability to earn or acquire money they should be able to safeguard their investments.

I'd buy a finished product, but if it's custom and built in stages over time, the builder should only be entitled to draws at stated levels of completion and that would be done by holding back any profits, only paying for materials and expensed labor.

 

[klahanie]

You'd think that people who are smart enough to have such disposable income would be smart enough to protect themselves in such a major purchase.

Oh boy ! I'm rich therefore I'm smart.

That's up there with, "Only the little people pay taxes" per Ms Helmsley

If they have the ability to earn or acquire money they should be able to safeguard their investments.

And yet formerly wealthy, high income people do on occasion get into personal financial ruin through bad investment choices. Self made millionaires do sometimes go bankrupt.

When folks start believing the wealthy, by virtue of their wealth, are smarter than the rest of us, that's when the problems begin.

 

[Deleted Member 183]

And yet formerly wealthy, high income people do on occasion get into personal financial ruin through bad investment choices.

HELL MAN! I made fantastic investment choices! It was my cute "little girli girl", our cute little girlfriend, and A LOT of the purest of "abalone shell" that brought me down!

For about 16 months!

"The road goes on forever and the party never ends"!

The worst part of it all is that my old buddies wives hate me since then and their husbands want me to constantly retell past stories!

What that does not kill us, makes us strong!

 

[klahanie]

... our cute little girlfriend,

Yes, the GF. Now there's a fun subject for a benefit-cost analysis...

 

[Ozarker]

Oh boy ! I'm rich therefore I'm smart.

That's up there with, "Only the little people pay taxes" per Ms Helmsley


And yet formerly wealthy, high income people do on occasion get into personal financial ruin through bad investment choices. Self made millionaires do sometimes go bankrupt.

When folks start believing the wealthy, by virtue of their wealth, are smarter than the rest of us, that's when the problems begin.

Not entirely, but that must have hit a nerve.

Who is Ms. Helmsley? Everyone pays taxes, some more than others.

Everyone is entitled to screw up, wealthy and poor alike, but they aren't really alike, the poor have much better chances.

 

[klahanie]

Not entirely, but that must have hit a nerve.

Who is Ms. Helmsley?

Leona Helmsley, infamous Queen of Mean, boss-lady in the movie, "Maid in Manhattan". That was one of her lines. Tho one could be forgiven if you mostly only remember Jennifer Lopez in the title role...

Everyone is entitled to screw up, wealthy and poor alike, but they aren't really alike, the poor have much better chances.

Hah, straight up Red-baiting. Pass.

I will say I was reminded of a supplier I knew who's customer base included a good number of franchises. We'd talk shop during her visits and she would sometimes share stories of new franchise owners who had bought into the dream, promptly gotten in over their heads and lost ... told with the exclaimer, "and these are intelligent people, who had good jobs before ! "

And then there's the professionals I've known in my own sheltered life. The Dr, Dentist, CA etc that have blown it. Lost their lifestyle, homes etc. through poor spending and investment choices.

In business, have know quite a few folks that were smart in business but not very smart when it came to looking after their money - sometimes money owed to a supplier (yours truly).

So when you wrote,

You'd think that people who are smart enough to have such disposable income would be smart enough to protect themselves in such a major purchase. If they have the ability to earn or acquire money they should be able to safeguard their investments.

... it didn't hit a nerve, it was more of a funny bone.

 

[Deleted Member 183]

.. it didn't hit a nerve, it was more of a funny bone.

Oh yeah, The ones that are often the biggest and most hilarious train wrecks are the CPA's and attorney's!

 

[AbleGuy]

I'd buy a finished product, but if it's custom and built in stages over time, the builder should only be entitled to draws at stated levels of completion and that would be done by holding back any profits, only paying for materials and expensed labor.

Yeah well, there’s the “should” world and the “real” world and you're not going to be able to negotiate a deal like this with anyone dealing with normal receivables and cash flow challenges.

Every company, both big and small, absolutely ‘fine prints’ you to death these days with completely one sided contracts full of protective legal b.s. that only really benefits the seller/producer of goods and services.

 

[Ozarker]

Yeah well, there’s the “should” world and the “real” world and you're not going to be able to negotiate a deal like this with anyone dealing with normal receivables and cash flow challenges.

Every company, both big and small, absolutely ‘fine prints’ you to death these days with completely one sided contracts full of protective legal b.s. that only really benefits the seller/producer of goods and services.

I bought a used truck from a dealer and after reaching a "meeting of the minds" the guy pulled out an 8 page contract. I laughed at it and he saif their attorney was a partner in the company and they don't sell anything without the contract.

That's ok, because he just explained that if I wanted to buy that truck I'd have to agree to their terms. What Sliky Dicky Esq. may have missed in his business law class about contracts is the enforceability of "predatory contracts" where 1. the consumer is forced to agree to something to conduct business, 2. the contract is totally one sided or detrimental and 3. the terms being such threaten the definition of an "arm's length" "business transaction".

Down side in dealing with such screwballs is they will think their tail is 100% covered. So, expect to go to court if SHTF, then let the judge and jury try to recall if they had to sign an 8 page contract when the bought a car, if those terms were common in the industry or if the contract forced an undue advantage in dealing with that contractor.

As to other comments; Finance and/or accounting classes are not required in undergrad or graduate work for any medical degree or a law degree.

Insurance agents have "estate planning" jokes about dentists.

My above comments that go along with "poor people have poor ways" and the flip side is that everyone is ignorant about something.