Van heating thread

Mwilliamshs

Explorer
LOL the furnace. A shot of the propane tank label would be cool tho.

Another idea, I know lots of folks with the Casita and other fiberglass rv's (they have their own forum and lots of their info is van compatible) swap from the Atwood mechanical to cheap digital thermostats. More accurate and less dramatic temp swings between burn cycles are their claims and the thermostats run on their own AA batteries. It's apparently very straight-forward to swap them out. Programmable thermostats are getting very inexpensive now too. Imagine leaving your van in a snowy campsite for the day and returning to it nice and warm, but without burning propane all day. Or leaving it for a week and returning without worry of tanks freezing by running it a couple hours (up to maybe 50°) each night....can't do any of that with a catalytic. Or maybe you pack the van for the weekend camping trip and want it to be ready to go right after work on Friday. Can't park inside the garage tho because the snowboards are on the roof rack but don't want to spend an hour scraping every window. What to do? Oh right just program it to be 70 inside at 5pm on Friday. I know Sprinters (like mentioned in Cole's ad in this thread) offer 7 day programmable heaters...now my cheap old Econoline can too.
 
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Jb1rd

Explorer
Ok so I got it semi apart and out and realized it was a bigger job than I wanted to tackle in the cold, however I managed a few pics and got a feel for what needs to be done.

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Cabinet taken apart and unit in place
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Unit coming apart, what made me realize it was a bigger job was the fact that the wiring would need to be cut and redone and the propane line system turned off evacuated and re-plumbed.
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Second bummer was seeing that the out let venting is at the front of the unit and serious work would need to be done to reroute with rigid or semi rigid ducting.

Now the heater has decided to trip the internal 5amp circuit breaker every time the fan turns on, it will run for 7-10 seconds and trip and on top of it my turn signals and over drive button stopped working, flipping random and totally frustrating when you don't know jack squat about electrical stuff:mad:


Sent by magic, I mean come on really, pictures through thin air, MAGIC!!!
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
I have the Espar Airtronic D2 7,500 BTU Diesel heater...

Espar Airtronic Manual (pdf) Nice units. Very compact and lightweight (3 lbs). Variable BTU output in 4 stages: 2,900; 4,100; 6,150; and 7,500 BTU with inputs of .03, .04, .06, and .07 gallons of diesel respectively. 1 gallon of diesel has about 139,200 BTUs in it. That means on "Boost" the D2 is consuming 9,744 BTUs and putting out 7,500, making it 76% efficient with regard to diesel, plus needed electricity. That diesel efficiency on High is 73%, Medium is 73%, and Low is 69% efficient with regard to diesel. This fuel efficiency ranges from just as good as the Everest Star 8012-II, at 76%, to 7% worse.


...My van is an extended model with the 24" Voyager style hard top and it is fairly well insulated with QuietRide under the floor, on the sides and top but not in the doors...


Sounds pretty close to my insulated van example except with more space. To keep things even I’ll be using the heat loss #'s exercised elsewhere in this thread (insulated van, penthouse closed), which needs 1,349.95 BTU/hr to maintain an inside temp of 65° in 30° degree weather.


...During the winter it is often in the 30s when camping in the desert and the Espar D2 seems like a perfect fit for the van. I normally leave it set about half way when in the 30s out and it will cycle on and off throughout the night keeping the van 65...


Sounds exactly like the camping scenario I have in mind. In this example (30 outside, 65 inside), the D2 would need to run at a 17.9% duty cycle on Boost, 21.9% on High, 32.9% on Medium, or 46.5% on Low. The Everest Star 8012-II has one output level and (9,120 BTU) does the job at 14.6%.
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Electrically speaking, the Airtronic D2 draws 8.3 amps on start-up (with fuel pump on, glow plug on, blower on Boost), then 2.8 on Boost, 1.9 on High, 1.0 on Medium, and 0.7 on Low. The Everest Star 8012-II has one speed and draws 1.8 amps.
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Comparing the Everest Star to the Airtronic D2 is difficult because the Everest Star is either on or off but the Airtronic chooses automatically from among 5 modes of operation with varying efficiencies and power demands: Boost, High, Medium, Low, and Standby. It’s understandable that even Low puts out too much heat for some situations so when satisfied, and already in Low, the heater goes into standby. Standby is not the energy-saving Godsend some seem to think it is.
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Page 17 of the linked Espar Airtronic D2 Manual has function diagrams for the Airtronic D2 and D4. Having reviewed them, here’s how Standby works. Running in low, temperature satisfies, so the fuel pump shuts off to extinguish the flame but the blower keeps running at Low speed. Then the glow plug fires for 40 seconds to make sure remaining fuel vapor has been burned while the blower keeps running on low. The temperature sensor is inside the heater body so the fan must run to circulate air through the heater so its temperature can be measured. As the space cools it will require more heat so the glow plug with be powered up, first for 60 seconds just the glow plug and the blower run together (the blower never stops) but now the blower is ramping up from Low to High, then for another 20 seconds the blower (on its way to Boost), the glow plug, and the fuel pump all 3 run, after which the flame is detected, glow plug turned off, and just the blower (on Boost at first, then whatever level is needed) and the fuel pump run. Sounds complicated. No wonder they have computerized controls and a diagnostic connector.
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How often the heater goes into standby will have a big impact on its overall efficiency. Standby obviously saves fuel but uses a LOT of electrical energy. For example, standby requires 3 minutes (40 seconds on shut-down, 140 seconds on startup) of glow plug power at ~5.5 amps (8.3 Startup [GP, FP and FAN] - 2.8 Boost [FAN AND FP ONLY]). That 5.5 amps x 3 minutes alone is more power than the Everest Star would be using in an entire hour, 16.5 vs 15.84 amp minutes. Considering Low output alone can keep the van at 65* in 30* weather at only a 46.5% duty cycle, I’d say considerable Standby time is inevitable.
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Let's say that in a given hour of 30* weather and 65* interior, the D2 runs at 46.5% Low and 53.5% Standby. That's .015 gallons of Diesel, .35AH of juice for the Low time, and no fuel but 16.5 amp minutes for the GP, and, according to VW Forums, .25 AH for the blower on standby (30 minutes). So that's .35AH for blower on 30 minutes of low heat, .275AH for glow plug, and .25AH for 30 minutes on standby, totaling .875 AH for 60 minutes of heat. That's best case scenario frankly, and compared to the .264AH of the Everest Star 8012II under the same circumstances, not very good (70% less electically-efficient). The next hour with the D2 is going to include the ramp up of the blower from Low to Boost, the Glow Plug cycling on for startup, then coming on again for standby, etc so in reality a 2 hour comparison would probably be the most accurate.
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What this all means is that the Espar Airtronic D2 is smaller and lighter than the Everest Star 8012-II, fancier too, but more expensive to purchase ($950ish) and repair (fuel pumps are pee-rice-ee from what I saw with a quick google-fication, $170+) and less efficient both on fuel and electricity, which frankly surprised me since the Espar is also capable of producing only 82% as much heat. I'm not preaching the Everest Star gospel here but just for comparison, the blower motor, wheel, and sail switch can all be replaced for ~$100 and a new unit is $460ish.
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I think the best things about an Espar Airtronic is it runs on Diesel and is very small and light and runs on fresh air so it's very safe and simple to operate. If you have a diesel van and don't want to add another fuel, I'd say an Espar is certainly reasonable.
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...Many of the Sportsmobiles have the D4 unit which puts out 13,650 btus. Some of the folks with this model have had issues with them clogging up from allegedly not being run hard enough. True or not I don't know but the D2 seems like a good fit for the temps I camp in…
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I have no doubt at all that an Espar destined to spend even more time in Standby (due to higher output) would be doomed in a Sportsmobile with any amount of insulation. That’s ridiculous but if folks weren’t buying the rigs they would not be getting built.
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
I had a Webasto Air Top 2000 in my old 2003 E350 RB Diesel with penthouse top....There were two things I didn't like about the system. One was that the fan never completely stopped when the unit was on. When the thermostat called for heat, the fan would rev up and blow heat, when the desired temp was met the burner would kick off and the fan would run a cooling cycle, the fan would then go into a slow air circulation mode until the next call for heat. I called Webasto tech support and was told that was how it was designed. The other thing I didn't like was that the Webasto diesel fuel pump made a fairly high pitched clicking sound when pumping fuel into the heater.
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Sounds exactly like the Espar in that the fan is always running. Fuel pumps making noise and honestly, being needed at all, is a problem for me. I've read of them being noisy before and if I lost a fuel pump in Patagonia, I don't think I'd be a happy man and I know I'd have unhappy company if the heat went out. With propane, no pump needed and with the Everest Star in particular, not much to go wrong that couldn't be fixed rather simply. It's all pretty basic mechanical stuff that can either be replaced or Mac-Guyvered with real basic stuff.
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I once made the propane furnace in a mobile office building turned-storm-shelter run when the blower motor went out mid-blizzard by rigging a leaf blower to it. Not recommended I suppose but neither's freezing to death!
 

Mwilliamshs

Explorer
I had a suburban heater in my 95 SMB. It was pretty loud when it was on and would wake me up every time it turned on...

Any idea what model of Suburban? Maybe a Google image search would help you identify it? I'm familiar with the Suburban NT heaters, NT12, NT16, etc. (see below) They quit making the NT12 several years ago and their smallest unit available now is the 16,000 BTU I think. Way big for a Ford EB, even a Sprinter I think. The Suburbans I've seen use a propeller type fan as opposed to a squirrel cage blower which makes them noisier by design. They also tend to be very high CFM which means high RPM and that's just asking for more noise. They also have big flat expanses of sheet metal making up their cabinets (no ribs, brackets, stamped stiffeners, etc just big flat pieces of metal) that make excellent echo/noise amplificiation chambers. I've quieted them down considerably with typical sound-deadening strategies but the fans are always the biggest problem that I've never been able to fully solve.
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I've done a lot of searching (hours every night for several days) before starting this thread and for propane, I think the Everest Star is gonna be tough to beat just because there's so few other options in appropriate ratings/dimensions/designs. I'm definitely open to new ideas tho! Thanks for sharing!



Seen outside \/
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Espar D2 impressions from the BLACK FRIDAY AMBO thread:
The Espar Airtronic D2 showed up. Wow wow wow! I might have to break guy code and read all the directions first here boys. There is quite a bit going on in this setup...

Heat. Finally. Thank God!...After throwing a little bit of a fit the heater finally pulled fuel from the tank and is roaring. Literally it is about 80% louder than I was expecting...I have no idea how work the 7 day timer and tell it to turn off yet...Hopefully the seat will muffle the clicking of the fuel pump....

... Sitting on the CPR seat I can't hear the pump anymore and the sound of the unit is greatly diminished...
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Now a few hindsite is 20-20 items:

Sit down over a beer and make your own simplified wiring diagram when installing the controller. The one provided...It makes a confusing mess of what is really 5 color coded wires...
 

Mwilliamshs

Explorer
From SpencyG's build of Boomer:
...The weather this past weekend was a little on the cold side which gave us the opportunity to use the cabin heater. Strangely, I had a couple instances of the unit not lighting which was a new problem. The heater is ignited with a little transformer and a couple probes. I removed the probes, cleaned them up with 600g sandpaper and reinstalled. Everything seems to be working again but I'll be keeping my eye on it. The heater is an older 16k btu Suburban Propane monstrosity which takes up far more under-cabinet room than I like. Eventually we're going to be undertaking a complete interior renovation, at which time the heater will be swapped out for either a vented catalytic unit or, if I win the lottery, a Webasto Dual Top Evo...SG

Seen on Boomer's right rear quarter panel:
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Chance on the SMB4UM says, "My uninsulated window van has always stayed warm with a 1500 watt heater we often run on low at night. On low it's either 750 or 1000 watts (not sure which) and it easily warms the van at least 30 degrees above ambient. For instance, set at 65 degrees with outside at 35 degrees, I can hear it cycling."

Since 1500 Watts = 5118.2 BTU/hr and 1000w = 3412 BTU/hr and 750w = 2559 BTU/hr, all but that 750w bit seems plausible considering I calculated the heat loss of an uninsulated, empty cargo van with (fewer) windows and a closed Penthouse top at 2,882 BTU/hr.
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Four Wheel Campers says this in response to questions about cold weather camping in their units, "...a Four Wheel Pop-up Camper is designed to provide maximum comfort on or off road, and in most all climates. An available 12,000 BTU forced air furnace w/ digital thermostat and the Thermal Pack option will enable our customers to efficiently and comfortably camp at really cold temperatures. From approx. 1972 - 1989 our factory was located in Colorado, so we do have some cold weather experience. Since the very early days, our campers have been designed so that our customers have the ability to use the camper in all types of climates, including cold Winter conditions."

The Grandby camper's specs: A roof length of 144", extended height of 78", and overall width of 80", that minus the front "notch" (below the cabover bed) of about 48"x50", gives their 8' Grandby model a total volume of about 409 cubic feet. This camper has a greater canvas area (they offer tent wall insulation, called a Thermal Pack) than a Sportsmobile Penthouse to go along with its greater overall area, 350 cu ft (SMB PH-open) vs 409 cu ft (FWC Grandby-open) but all their campers use the Everest Star 8012-II seen below from inside (grill painted black next to fridge, just below drawer) and outside (stainless grate between water heater and city water connection)



Images borrowed from FWC website and cropped for clarity so focus suffered
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Everest Star in Westfalia interior. Obviously not the exact same van (different refrigerators, etc) but c'mon, seen one vanagon westfalia interior and you've seen most of them.
Showing cabinet door as stock\/

Showing Everest Star in cabinet \/
 

flightcancled

Explorer
So in my limited testing of my D2 I have found that the heater can take my fat bottomed girl from -1 to a comfortable temperature (60+) in 45 minutes. As the heater and fuel pump have broken in the noise has continued to decrease. Or maybe I'm just getting used to it.

I'm pretty impressed considering I did not have the windshield or windows covered, and no door insulation (yet), so the cab is dumping heat.
 
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Mwilliamshs

Explorer
Propex info

HS2000 $695
Heat Output: 6483 BTU per hour
Current Consumption: 1.4 amps
Air Flow: 60 C.F.M.
Dimensions: 12.6" long x 6.8" wide x 3.9" tall
6,483 BTU output/ 2.1 kW input = 90% efficient
30° weather, 65° interior, insulated van, top down
Need 1,350 BTU/hr / have 6,483 = 21% duty cycle = 12.6 minutes/hr
12.6 x 1.4 = 17.64 amp minutes/hr = .294AH
7.05AH in 24 hour day
(Everest Star 8012-II = 6.33) [11% difference]
2.1kW/hr @ 21% = 1,490 BTU/hr burned
35,770 BTU in 24 hour day
(Everest Star 8012-II= 42,048) [15% difference]
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HS2800 $795
Heat Output: 9554 BTU per hour
Current Consumption: 1.9 amps
Air Flow: 85 C.F.M.
Dimensions: 16.3" long x 8.3" wide x 4.7" tall
9,554 BTU output/ 3.0 kW input = 93% efficient
30° weather, 65° interior, insulated van, top down
Need 1,350 BTU/hr / have 9,554 = 14.1% duty cycle = 8.47 minutes/hr
8.47 x 1.9 = 16.10 amp minutes/hr = .2683 AH
6.44 AH in 24 hour day
(Everest Star 8012-II = 6.33) [2% difference]
3.0kW/hr @ 14.1% = 1,443.34 BTU/hr burned
34,640 BTU in 24 hour day
(Everest Star 8012-II= 42,048) [18% difference]
 
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