Mwilliamshs
Explorer
If you have a heater in your van, whether it's forced air, catalytic, etc what do you think of it?
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An example of what I'm looking for in an ideal answer:
"I have a 8,000 BTU XYZ propane heater inside my Ford EB with an ABC top with X" of XYZ insulation. I camp in temperatures as cold as XX*F (or XXX*C) and I think this heater is...ideal, barely sufficient, too big, etc. It uses barely any, way too much, just the right amount of fuel, etc."
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I'm having a hard time deciding how many BTUs it takes to heat a van [see below] and am looking for reviews of heaters like the Everest Star forced-air furnaces (smallest modern model of their type I've found), the Olympian waves (3, 6 and 8), etc. I'm familiar with the Buddy heaters and am looking for something safer and more permanent and smaller but if you've had good luck with one might as well share for the collective.
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Here’s some data. Make that LOTS. It’s actually based on a 2013 Ford EB but as the vans changed very little, and if anything got slightly larger as time went by, I think these numbers should be accurate enough for my 1989 model estimations.
Cargo Area Length @ Floor to Console:158.7"
Cargo Area Length @ Floor to Seat: 142.4"
Cargo Box Width @ Wheelhousings: 52.5"
Cargo Volume: 278.3 ft3
Wheelbase: 138.0”
Length, Overall w/rear bumper: 236.4”
Width, Max w/o mirrors: 79.4”
Height, Overall: 82.6” (doesn’t include Penthouse)
Ground to Top of Load Floor: 28.6”
Rear Door Opening Height: 49.5”
Rear Door Opening Width: 53.9”
Side Door Opening Height: 48.1”
Side Door Opening Width: 44.8”
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Now some common sense: if it’s really cold out and you’re trying to stay warm in your van you should curtain off the front end. With the windshield, windows, doors, vents, etc it’s a very inefficient space to heat. The same is true of the penthouse top, so close it. Doing those two things leaves us a box that is from floor to ceiling (overall height 82.6” - ground to load floor 28.6”) 54”, and from the rear of the front seats to the rear doors, 142.4” long, and from side to side (ignoring the wheel-wells’ volume, so we’ll use overall width without mirrors) 79.4”. That volume, 54”x142.4”x79.4,” rounded off, is 610,550 cubic inches, or ~350 cubic feet. This is the space we’ll try to calculate the heat needs of. Ford calls it 278.3 ft3. They're probably right, but I want to exaggerate the need to prevent under-sizing the furnace.
.
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Now the floor, at our hypothetical 80”(6.667 ft) x 142.4” (11.667 ft) has an area of 77.78 sq feet, is entirely steel (single-wall), and as steel’s R value is about 0.003 per inch, it’s practically nonexistent as insulation (great conductor though) but it is nice and wind-proof so there’s something. The side walls (54” x 142.4”, 53.4 sq ft each) are likewise steel (and largely single-wall) but also have large openings in them for the passenger-side doors, (48.1” x 44.8”, 14.9 sq ft) and their windows, (19-5/16" x 19-1/8", 2.5 sq ft each) and I also have a sliding window on each side that’s 42” x 15”, 4.375 sq ft. This makes them even worse from an insulation standpoint. The passenger side is 29.125 sq ft of continuous steel plus the doors themselves @ 14.9 sq ft, so 44.025 sq ft of steel (windows already deducted) and the driver’s side is 49.025 sq ft of steel (window deducted). The side glass totals 13.75 sq ft. The rear wall, 30 sq ft, minus the windows, is 25 sq ft of steel and 5 sq of glass. The roof is slightly better when it’s down due to being fiberglass vs steel, R 2.5/in vs .003/in, and has the 4”or so mattress and ½” plywood (maybe 3/4, I dunno) and upholstery serving as insulation. The fiberglass roof itself shares its dimensions with the floor (hypothetically of course) at 77.78 sq ft and about ⅜” thick (.375 x 2.5/in = .94 R), and the bed is 42”×78”, 22.75 sq ft, of mattress foam (4” x 3/in = 12R), upholstery (.125 in x 1.60/in [vinyl] = 0.2R), and plywood (.75in x 1.10/in =.825R). This all adds up to the Penthouse top (when down) having an approximate R value of 13.965.
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Assuming the curtain at the front seats is uninsulated but draft-free, and no other insulation is present in the rear of the van, we have a volume of 350 cubic ft and an exterior surface area of 77.78 sq ft penthouse [27%] @ (13.97R) + 195.83 sq ft steel [67%] @ (0.0R) + 18.75 sq ft glass [6%] @ (0.91/in R) = 292.36 sq ft. That ~292 sq ft has an average R value of 3.55.
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Let’s say the coldest I want to camp is 30* outside and I want it 65* inside. That’s a difference of 35*, all in fahrenheit. How much heat do I need?
.
There’s an equation for that:
.
Heat loss = Q/t= (area)(Temp in - Temp out)
Thermal Resistance
.
If we’re using units of BTU/hr for Q, sq ft for area, and *F for temperature, Thermal Resistance will be the “R value” unit, convenient, huh?
.
okay so BTU/hr is what we want to know, (292.36sq ft)(35*)/R3.55= 2,882 BTU/hr heat loss.
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So if the van is 65* inside when you park and shut it off, and it’s losing 2,882 BTU/hr, you need to put 2,882 back in (plus a bit for drafts, wind, etc, call it 3,000) just to maintain the 65* you started at. If you started at 30* and want to warm it up to 65* it’ll take about 8,000 BTU to get there at all (because the greater the temp difference, the greater the loss and you’re starting with 30* air inside), and more BTUs output means faster warmup. Forced air is also much faster than radiant due to air movement across the heat exchanger. In reality, if my van was already 30* and I wanted it 65* I’d crank up the engine and it’s heater, and whatever heater I had until it hit 65* then switch off the engine and let the heater maintain. I have a lot more gasoline capacity and it’s a lot easier to replenish than propane.
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So let’s say we can add 2” of insulation to the walls and doors, 1” to the floor, and we cover all the windows and get them up from R0.91 to R2. R6.7 Ultratouch is my current pick for walls and doors. R3 rigid foam for the floor, ½ foam between two sheets of ¼” plywood (R 0.55) so the floor is now 77.78 sq ft (27%) of R3.55, the 18.75 sq ft of glass (6%) is R2, the side walls are 93.05 sq ft (32%) of R6.7 [+ .155, see below], the rear wall is 25 sq ft (8%) of R6.7 [+. 155, see below], and the roof remains 77.78 sq ft (27%) of R13.965. Our average R value is now 7.58, an improvement of over 100% (more than twice as insulated).
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Heat loss is now (292.36 sq ft)(35*)/7.58R= 1,349.95 BTU/hr, an improvement of over 100% (losing less than half as much in the same time period). So keeping a 65* van with insulation at 65* requires ~1350 BTU/hr and taking it from 30* to 65* needs ~3,500.
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At current prices, the insulation for the walls is $36.00/case at Home Depot and 4 cases will cover the walls plus a bit left over to stuff in random cavities. The floor foam is $12.58/sheet and 6 sheets is the easiest way to install it even though 5 sheets would technically cover it. The plywood is $16.25 a sheet, again 6 sheets is best. That’s ~$315 for over 100% improvement in heat retention. This would leave bare insulation on the walls to be covered as you please. I’ll likely use ⅛” plywood underlayment at $12.97 a sheet. As this product will show and neatness counts, 8 sheets gives the needed material to point joints in the right places and trim the doors neatly. Another $104 and another 118.05 sq feet of plywood at 1/8" thick, so (.125 x 1.24= R.155), which raises the R value of the walls (side and rear) [see above]. So insulating and trimming the rear of the van costs $420 in material plus screws and glue, etc.
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With the top popped, that 42”×78”x30" area (just the canvas walls and vinyl windows) has 0 R value. Adding 56.875 cubic feet and assuming the bed is raised up against the roof (worst case scenario, vs the bed separating the cold "attic" from the warm interior), the average R value becomes 6.28 and the area becomes 349.235 sq ft. This makes the heat loss 1,946.37 BTU/hr. That means insulating the van and popping the top is better than keeping the top down uninsulated, by about 1/3!
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I think I'd really like the Wave catalytic heaters for their efficiency (no wasted propane), lack of electical needs (no blower), simplicity (no moving parts, no holes to cut in the van), etc but I'm stuck on sizes. These heaters do require fresh air venting (open window, etc) and do introduce humidity. The biggest trouble in selecting one is the limited range of adjustment on these heaters. The Wave 3 (3000 BTU max) adjusts from 1600 to 3000 BTU/hr (plenty to maintain temp in an insulated van but not enough to heat it from 30 to 65 and definitely not enough for an uninsulated van. I think it would gradually get colder and colder in spite of the heater being on high constantly which is inefficient), while the 6 goes from 3200 to 6000 BTU/hr (enough to maintain temp in an insulated van running most of the time on low [3200/2=1600 so roughly 50% duty cycle to hold van at 65 in 30 weather], more than enough to heat it on high, but still insufficient for an uninsulated van) and the 8 is adjustable from 4200 - 8000 BTU/hr (maintain 65 in an insulated van at 35% duty cycle on low and can heat an uninsulated van too). The only overlap amongst any of the 3 models is between the 6 and 8 and I think more heat than needed is better than too little (can always turn off the 8 if you only need 3000 BTU but can't ever get enough BTUs from the 3 if what you need is 5500, but can get that amount from either the 6 or the 8 but who wants to turn their heater on and off every 20 minutes? On the other hand, if someone with a similar or comparable van has camped colder than I ever will and only needed 6000 BTU or less I could save $ and space by not buying the 8, or the 6 if 3000 BTU was enough...
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Wave Heater dimensions:
Wave 8: 21 1/4"H x 15"W x 4"D, 16.95 lbs
Wave 6: 17 7/8"H x 12 13/16"W x 4"D, 12.9 lbs
Wave 3: 11 3/4"H x 10 1/4"W x 3 1/2"D, 6.85 lbs
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Wave heaters are 90% or better efficient relative to propane and use no electricity.
.
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On the other hand, the Everest Star forced-air furnaces are super safe without any venting, reduce moisture rather than create it, and are more widely available used. They are very powerful though. Available in output ratings of 9,120, 9,160, 12,160, and 13,680 BTU/hr. They do require electricity, under 2 amps on the lowest power model, and do require cutting a hole in the van's outer wall. They also waste heat by blowing their (hot but noxious) exhaust outside. The lowest power model @ 9,120 BTU output can maintain 65 in an uninsulated van @ about 30% duty cycle, heat it with over 1,000 BTU spare and maintain an insulated van @ 14.8% duty cycle. That means about 9 minutes (8.88) of an hour it's running to hold 65 in 30 degree weather. 8.88 minutes/hr @ 1.8amps is under 6.5AH per day (6.33) if it stays 30* and you just let it run. Taint bad.
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That exhaust flows through this \/
.
Everest Dimensions: 11 3/8"H x 8 3/8"W x 20 1/2"D, 23 lbs. Vent cutout size: 2-1/2" H x 4-7/8" W.
.
Interesting:the smallest wave and the Everest Star have similar surface footprints (face of a cabinet for example).
.
Based on their own ratings, these furnaces are 75% efficient relative to propane. (Big heat exchanger)
Plus needed electricity.
.
Also interested in the Propex and Espar heaters. I've seen the Heatsource HS2800 (9,550 BTU output) and the smaller HS2000 (about 6,500 BTU output) in Vanagons. Any reviews? They seem to have all the advantages of the Everest Star in a smaller package that also allows venting through the floor instead of the wall and needs no surface space at all except for the heat outlet vent(s). They do seem more sophisticated than I'd think necessary in a propane furnace with micro-processors and trouble-codes being blinked out by flashing LEDs. Both models consume just under 2 amps of current whilst running (unclear whether that's for 12 or 24 volts tho)
.
Based on their own ratings, these furnaces are 90% efficient relative to propane. (Tiny heat exchanger)
Plus needed electricity.
.
No matter what heater is chosen a CO2/CO monitor is of course needed.
.
So yeah...I'm fishing for info but let's not rehash the Buddy heater debate of safety or the venting needs of the wave. I think we all expect folks smart enough to be here to be smart enough to read the billion other posts about that
.
An example of what I'm looking for in an ideal answer:
"I have a 8,000 BTU XYZ propane heater inside my Ford EB with an ABC top with X" of XYZ insulation. I camp in temperatures as cold as XX*F (or XXX*C) and I think this heater is...ideal, barely sufficient, too big, etc. It uses barely any, way too much, just the right amount of fuel, etc."
.
I'm having a hard time deciding how many BTUs it takes to heat a van [see below] and am looking for reviews of heaters like the Everest Star forced-air furnaces (smallest modern model of their type I've found), the Olympian waves (3, 6 and 8), etc. I'm familiar with the Buddy heaters and am looking for something safer and more permanent and smaller but if you've had good luck with one might as well share for the collective.
.
Here’s some data. Make that LOTS. It’s actually based on a 2013 Ford EB but as the vans changed very little, and if anything got slightly larger as time went by, I think these numbers should be accurate enough for my 1989 model estimations.
Cargo Area Length @ Floor to Console:158.7"
Cargo Area Length @ Floor to Seat: 142.4"
Cargo Box Width @ Wheelhousings: 52.5"
Cargo Volume: 278.3 ft3
Wheelbase: 138.0”
Length, Overall w/rear bumper: 236.4”
Width, Max w/o mirrors: 79.4”
Height, Overall: 82.6” (doesn’t include Penthouse)
Ground to Top of Load Floor: 28.6”
Rear Door Opening Height: 49.5”
Rear Door Opening Width: 53.9”
Side Door Opening Height: 48.1”
Side Door Opening Width: 44.8”
.
Now some common sense: if it’s really cold out and you’re trying to stay warm in your van you should curtain off the front end. With the windshield, windows, doors, vents, etc it’s a very inefficient space to heat. The same is true of the penthouse top, so close it. Doing those two things leaves us a box that is from floor to ceiling (overall height 82.6” - ground to load floor 28.6”) 54”, and from the rear of the front seats to the rear doors, 142.4” long, and from side to side (ignoring the wheel-wells’ volume, so we’ll use overall width without mirrors) 79.4”. That volume, 54”x142.4”x79.4,” rounded off, is 610,550 cubic inches, or ~350 cubic feet. This is the space we’ll try to calculate the heat needs of. Ford calls it 278.3 ft3. They're probably right, but I want to exaggerate the need to prevent under-sizing the furnace.
.
.
Now the floor, at our hypothetical 80”(6.667 ft) x 142.4” (11.667 ft) has an area of 77.78 sq feet, is entirely steel (single-wall), and as steel’s R value is about 0.003 per inch, it’s practically nonexistent as insulation (great conductor though) but it is nice and wind-proof so there’s something. The side walls (54” x 142.4”, 53.4 sq ft each) are likewise steel (and largely single-wall) but also have large openings in them for the passenger-side doors, (48.1” x 44.8”, 14.9 sq ft) and their windows, (19-5/16" x 19-1/8", 2.5 sq ft each) and I also have a sliding window on each side that’s 42” x 15”, 4.375 sq ft. This makes them even worse from an insulation standpoint. The passenger side is 29.125 sq ft of continuous steel plus the doors themselves @ 14.9 sq ft, so 44.025 sq ft of steel (windows already deducted) and the driver’s side is 49.025 sq ft of steel (window deducted). The side glass totals 13.75 sq ft. The rear wall, 30 sq ft, minus the windows, is 25 sq ft of steel and 5 sq of glass. The roof is slightly better when it’s down due to being fiberglass vs steel, R 2.5/in vs .003/in, and has the 4”or so mattress and ½” plywood (maybe 3/4, I dunno) and upholstery serving as insulation. The fiberglass roof itself shares its dimensions with the floor (hypothetically of course) at 77.78 sq ft and about ⅜” thick (.375 x 2.5/in = .94 R), and the bed is 42”×78”, 22.75 sq ft, of mattress foam (4” x 3/in = 12R), upholstery (.125 in x 1.60/in [vinyl] = 0.2R), and plywood (.75in x 1.10/in =.825R). This all adds up to the Penthouse top (when down) having an approximate R value of 13.965.
.
Assuming the curtain at the front seats is uninsulated but draft-free, and no other insulation is present in the rear of the van, we have a volume of 350 cubic ft and an exterior surface area of 77.78 sq ft penthouse [27%] @ (13.97R) + 195.83 sq ft steel [67%] @ (0.0R) + 18.75 sq ft glass [6%] @ (0.91/in R) = 292.36 sq ft. That ~292 sq ft has an average R value of 3.55.
.
Let’s say the coldest I want to camp is 30* outside and I want it 65* inside. That’s a difference of 35*, all in fahrenheit. How much heat do I need?
.
There’s an equation for that:
.
Heat loss = Q/t= (area)(Temp in - Temp out)
Thermal Resistance
.
If we’re using units of BTU/hr for Q, sq ft for area, and *F for temperature, Thermal Resistance will be the “R value” unit, convenient, huh?
.
okay so BTU/hr is what we want to know, (292.36sq ft)(35*)/R3.55= 2,882 BTU/hr heat loss.
.
So if the van is 65* inside when you park and shut it off, and it’s losing 2,882 BTU/hr, you need to put 2,882 back in (plus a bit for drafts, wind, etc, call it 3,000) just to maintain the 65* you started at. If you started at 30* and want to warm it up to 65* it’ll take about 8,000 BTU to get there at all (because the greater the temp difference, the greater the loss and you’re starting with 30* air inside), and more BTUs output means faster warmup. Forced air is also much faster than radiant due to air movement across the heat exchanger. In reality, if my van was already 30* and I wanted it 65* I’d crank up the engine and it’s heater, and whatever heater I had until it hit 65* then switch off the engine and let the heater maintain. I have a lot more gasoline capacity and it’s a lot easier to replenish than propane.
.
So let’s say we can add 2” of insulation to the walls and doors, 1” to the floor, and we cover all the windows and get them up from R0.91 to R2. R6.7 Ultratouch is my current pick for walls and doors. R3 rigid foam for the floor, ½ foam between two sheets of ¼” plywood (R 0.55) so the floor is now 77.78 sq ft (27%) of R3.55, the 18.75 sq ft of glass (6%) is R2, the side walls are 93.05 sq ft (32%) of R6.7 [+ .155, see below], the rear wall is 25 sq ft (8%) of R6.7 [+. 155, see below], and the roof remains 77.78 sq ft (27%) of R13.965. Our average R value is now 7.58, an improvement of over 100% (more than twice as insulated).
.
Heat loss is now (292.36 sq ft)(35*)/7.58R= 1,349.95 BTU/hr, an improvement of over 100% (losing less than half as much in the same time period). So keeping a 65* van with insulation at 65* requires ~1350 BTU/hr and taking it from 30* to 65* needs ~3,500.
.
At current prices, the insulation for the walls is $36.00/case at Home Depot and 4 cases will cover the walls plus a bit left over to stuff in random cavities. The floor foam is $12.58/sheet and 6 sheets is the easiest way to install it even though 5 sheets would technically cover it. The plywood is $16.25 a sheet, again 6 sheets is best. That’s ~$315 for over 100% improvement in heat retention. This would leave bare insulation on the walls to be covered as you please. I’ll likely use ⅛” plywood underlayment at $12.97 a sheet. As this product will show and neatness counts, 8 sheets gives the needed material to point joints in the right places and trim the doors neatly. Another $104 and another 118.05 sq feet of plywood at 1/8" thick, so (.125 x 1.24= R.155), which raises the R value of the walls (side and rear) [see above]. So insulating and trimming the rear of the van costs $420 in material plus screws and glue, etc.
.
With the top popped, that 42”×78”x30" area (just the canvas walls and vinyl windows) has 0 R value. Adding 56.875 cubic feet and assuming the bed is raised up against the roof (worst case scenario, vs the bed separating the cold "attic" from the warm interior), the average R value becomes 6.28 and the area becomes 349.235 sq ft. This makes the heat loss 1,946.37 BTU/hr. That means insulating the van and popping the top is better than keeping the top down uninsulated, by about 1/3!
.
I think I'd really like the Wave catalytic heaters for their efficiency (no wasted propane), lack of electical needs (no blower), simplicity (no moving parts, no holes to cut in the van), etc but I'm stuck on sizes. These heaters do require fresh air venting (open window, etc) and do introduce humidity. The biggest trouble in selecting one is the limited range of adjustment on these heaters. The Wave 3 (3000 BTU max) adjusts from 1600 to 3000 BTU/hr (plenty to maintain temp in an insulated van but not enough to heat it from 30 to 65 and definitely not enough for an uninsulated van. I think it would gradually get colder and colder in spite of the heater being on high constantly which is inefficient), while the 6 goes from 3200 to 6000 BTU/hr (enough to maintain temp in an insulated van running most of the time on low [3200/2=1600 so roughly 50% duty cycle to hold van at 65 in 30 weather], more than enough to heat it on high, but still insufficient for an uninsulated van) and the 8 is adjustable from 4200 - 8000 BTU/hr (maintain 65 in an insulated van at 35% duty cycle on low and can heat an uninsulated van too). The only overlap amongst any of the 3 models is between the 6 and 8 and I think more heat than needed is better than too little (can always turn off the 8 if you only need 3000 BTU but can't ever get enough BTUs from the 3 if what you need is 5500, but can get that amount from either the 6 or the 8 but who wants to turn their heater on and off every 20 minutes? On the other hand, if someone with a similar or comparable van has camped colder than I ever will and only needed 6000 BTU or less I could save $ and space by not buying the 8, or the 6 if 3000 BTU was enough...
.
Wave Heater dimensions:
Wave 8: 21 1/4"H x 15"W x 4"D, 16.95 lbs
Wave 6: 17 7/8"H x 12 13/16"W x 4"D, 12.9 lbs
Wave 3: 11 3/4"H x 10 1/4"W x 3 1/2"D, 6.85 lbs
.
Wave heaters are 90% or better efficient relative to propane and use no electricity.
.
.
On the other hand, the Everest Star forced-air furnaces are super safe without any venting, reduce moisture rather than create it, and are more widely available used. They are very powerful though. Available in output ratings of 9,120, 9,160, 12,160, and 13,680 BTU/hr. They do require electricity, under 2 amps on the lowest power model, and do require cutting a hole in the van's outer wall. They also waste heat by blowing their (hot but noxious) exhaust outside. The lowest power model @ 9,120 BTU output can maintain 65 in an uninsulated van @ about 30% duty cycle, heat it with over 1,000 BTU spare and maintain an insulated van @ 14.8% duty cycle. That means about 9 minutes (8.88) of an hour it's running to hold 65 in 30 degree weather. 8.88 minutes/hr @ 1.8amps is under 6.5AH per day (6.33) if it stays 30* and you just let it run. Taint bad.
.
That exhaust flows through this \/
.
Everest Dimensions: 11 3/8"H x 8 3/8"W x 20 1/2"D, 23 lbs. Vent cutout size: 2-1/2" H x 4-7/8" W.
.
Interesting:the smallest wave and the Everest Star have similar surface footprints (face of a cabinet for example).
.
Based on their own ratings, these furnaces are 75% efficient relative to propane. (Big heat exchanger)
Plus needed electricity.
.
Also interested in the Propex and Espar heaters. I've seen the Heatsource HS2800 (9,550 BTU output) and the smaller HS2000 (about 6,500 BTU output) in Vanagons. Any reviews? They seem to have all the advantages of the Everest Star in a smaller package that also allows venting through the floor instead of the wall and needs no surface space at all except for the heat outlet vent(s). They do seem more sophisticated than I'd think necessary in a propane furnace with micro-processors and trouble-codes being blinked out by flashing LEDs. Both models consume just under 2 amps of current whilst running (unclear whether that's for 12 or 24 volts tho)
.
Based on their own ratings, these furnaces are 90% efficient relative to propane. (Tiny heat exchanger)
Plus needed electricity.
.
No matter what heater is chosen a CO2/CO monitor is of course needed.
.
So yeah...I'm fishing for info but let's not rehash the Buddy heater debate of safety or the venting needs of the wave. I think we all expect folks smart enough to be here to be smart enough to read the billion other posts about that
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