Am I crazy for wanting a rig that gets low 20's mpg ???

[calicamper]

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As I said in another thread, I'd guess that mid sized BOF trucks will disappear along with mid-sized BOF SUVs.
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The reason I see no future for compact trucks is because auto manufacturers seem to be devoting their energies to squeezing more MPGs out of full size trucks. Once you've gotten 20-29 MPG (so they say - color me skeptical) out of the likes of an F-150 or a RAM, where is the justification for a 25mpg compact? Where does it fit into the market?
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The only way to make a "compact" truck viable in the market is to either make it super cheap (which cannibalizes sales from your more expensive line of full size trucks) or give it really good MPG - like on the order of 35-45 MPG. And with current technology, it's virtually impossible to do that with a BOF, inline engine design like the Tacoma.
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No, the only way to keep the "mid sized" segment viable is to replace the current crop of BOF trucks with car-based unibody "trucklets" similar to the Dodge Rampage, VW Rabbit Pickup or Subaru Baja. The problem there should be obvious: All three of those attempts were miserable failures, sales-wise. (it should be pointed out that all three were also sold at a time when there was a thriving mid-sized pickup market, so it's possible that with mid-sized pickups gone, the "compact car-pickup" might gain traction.)
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Interestingly, there's one non-failure among the car-based-unibody truck platforms: The Honda Ridgeline. Not that the Ridgeline is burning up the sales floors, but it is apparently selling well enough that Honda has signed up for a refreshed generation. Honda is a shrewd company and they wouldn't do that if they thought it was likely to be a sales flop.
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So, to the extent that the "mid sized pickup" does survive, it will be the same way that the "mid sized SUV" survives, i.e. by ditching its BOF design in favor of a car-based FWD unibody platform.

I would agree except I live in CA one of the biggest auto markets in the US and to be honest I can't own a full size its too big. I bought a 93 Land Cruiser because it fit in the same spot my Subaru fit. Today I have a 07 Sequoia and its too big for several of the places I need to go. I borrowed a friends long bed 4dr tacoma a while back the length of that thing made where I had to go nearly a show stopper. When I do work on my Rental I take our VW Jetta or my Subaru and come home with the cars so packed full of stuff inside and out you'd think I would buy a truck in a heart beat except I wouldn't be able to park it within a full block of my rental defeating the purpose of even trying to take the truck to use it as a truck. Vs the cars I park right out front. I miss the land cruiser short length and hauling ability for sure but it just didn't work well for the family hauling duty which is why we replaced it with the Sequoia.

I grew up with full sized trucks and I can honestly say it would stay parked 99% of the time because it just is too large to use around here. Hell gramps had a mint condition 3 row suburban he would have given to us when we moved him back to CA from MI. Today he drives a cherry SLK350 given he couldn't even drive his Suburban to his doctors appointments given there was no where he could park, he was borrowing our Land Cruiser and our subaru to go to his doctors appointments. LOL

 

[Martinjmpr]

Let me be even bolder and say that it won't be long before even the venerable Jeep is a unibody design with 4 wheel independent suspension.
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And before you say "Blasphemy! Unibody design? Independent Suspension? Single-speed transfer case? That's not a Jeep!" I would counter with this:
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M151_Truck,_Utility,_l/4-Ton,_4%C3%974

 

[Martinjmpr]

I would agree except I live in CA one of the biggest auto markets in the US and to be honest I can't own a full size its too big. I bought a 93 Land Cruiser because it fit in the same spot my Subaru fit. Today I have a 07 Sequoia and its too big for several of the places I need to go. I borrowed a friends long bed 4dr tacoma a while back the length of that thing made where I had to go nearly a show stopper. When I do work on my Rental I take our VW Jetta or my Subaru and come home with the cars so packed full of stuff inside and out you'd think I would buy a truck in a heart beat except I wouldn't be able to park it within a full block of my rental defeating the purpose of even trying to take the truck to use it as a truck. Vs the cars I park right out front. I miss the land cruiser short length and hauling ability for sure but it just didn't work well for the family hauling duty which is why we replaced it with the Sequoia.

I grew up with full sized trucks and I can honestly say it would stay parked 99% of the time because it just is too large to use around here. Hell gramps had a mint condition 3 row suburban he would have given to us when we moved him back to CA from MI. Today he drives a cherry SLK350 given he couldn't even drive his Suburban to his doctors appointments given there was no where he could park, he was borrowing our Land Cruiser and our subaru to go to his doctors appointments. LOL

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You must live in a big city, then. Out in the 'burbs where I live full size trucks outnumber compacts by quite a bit.
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Doesn't matter anyway because soon enough you won't have the option of a BOF compact because they won't exist. You'll have to choose between a full size pickup or a unibody trucklet like the Ridgeline. Hell, Subaru ought to consider bringing the Baja back. I think the Baja's biggest problem was one of timing - it was introduced when gas prices were still very low and by the time gas prices started spiking, Subaru had already axed the Baja.

 

[calicamper]

As for price of vehicles - Only Americans associate size with price.

If Mercedes sold a midsized diesel 4x4 4dr pickup with a really nice interior and really good crash rating for 50K I can promise you there would be plenty of people buying them. We walked away from the table when we were a micro second from buying a 4dr midsized truck because of two things. Poor crash rating and poor mileage. We would have easily paid cash for a 40K midsized that met our needs.

Will I pay dealer jacked up prices for a vehicle? Hell no! I have never played that game so the game GM dealers are playing today with the Colorado and Canyon is of no interest to me, I would simply go find a private seller and skip the dealer games of MSRP or higher etc. I actually have no interest in buying new EVER again after dealing with a Dealer network that owns most of the Toyota Dealers in Northern CA where they flat out told me they don't negotiate and pointed to their sister dealers owned by the same company as pricing examples of why they won't negotiate. I knew they were all owned by the same LA BASEd company and just walked out. Even sent the CA DA's office a complaint about regional price fixing practices by the Auto Group.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Speaking of unibody trucks, I saw a few in either Mexico or Costa Rica.
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Doing a little googling here's what I found: Chevy Tornado pickup from Mexico, also called the Montana in Brazil:
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http://trucks.about.com/od/makesandmodels/ss/trucks_world.htm
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Ford Courier pickup (funny because "Courier" was the name of Ford's original "compact truck", a re-badged Mazda B1800, I think.)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Courier
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NOTE: No I don't think these exact trucks will make it to the US market, instead what I think we'll see is a current model of a US-spec compact car will be made into a truck using a similar design. This will take the place of the "mid sized" truck in the same way that the "CUV" crossover has taken the place of the "mid sized" BOF SUV.
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Think of a modern Cruze or Focus but with a 4 door cab and a short (4 - 5') bed, with AWD as an option. With a small engine and modern technology, mid-30's MPG would be achievable.

 

[calicamper]

Speaking of unibody trucks, I saw a few in either Mexico or Costa Rica.
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Doing a little googling here's what I found: Chevy Tornado pickup from Mexico, also called the Montana in Brazil:
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http://trucks.about.com/od/makesandmodels/ss/trucks_world.htm
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Ford Courier pickup (funny because "Courier" was the name of Ford's original "compact truck", a re-badged Mazda B1800, I think.)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Courier
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NOTE: No I don't think these exact trucks will make it to the US market, instead what I think we'll see is a current model of a US-spec compact car will be made into a truck using a similar design. This will take the place of the "mid sized" truck in the same way that the "CUV" crossover has taken the place of the "mid sized" BOF SUV.
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Think of a modern Cruze or Focus but with a 4 door cab and a short (4 - 5') bed, with AWD as an option. With a small engine and modern technology, mid-30's MPG would be achievable.

Already being done if you consider what Ford is doing with the baby Transit - which by the way got larger. I ran into a parent who just picked up the new baby Transit family van thing to be honest its pretty well done and a great size! Though it lacks AWD which is a bummer. If the Unibody truck thing happens you won't see anyone do it unless Honda shows that its unibody truck can sell in big numbers with a redesign.

The issue is size for most folks who might consider a midsized pickup if the Tacoma, Frontier and Colorado keep getting bigger they won't be any different than the Full sized rigs to those of us who can't go that big and will simply keep paying cash for Subarus and beating the crap out of them.

Size matters in the Auto markets with the most influence regarding money! LA, Bay Area and other major metro areas with high paid consumers play a much bigger role in vehicle marketing and design than smaller markets in more rural areas of the US. Thats just how the game is played. LA still sells a large number of full sized trucks but I bet the Bay Area market for full sized trucks is very small in comparison. It would be really interesting to see actual stats on where midsized trucks sell better than full size etc. Would be really interesting to see that sort of data.

 

[swrider]

My take is that if you want good highway mileage and also lots of gear toting ability you need a full sized pickup which you keep as clean as possible on the exterior and load all your not so clean gear in the back under a sleek cap. As you pointed out start adding big aggressive tread tires, racks and no so sleek bumpers etc the mileage options start to tank.

I think it really comes down to do you really need those big knarly tires? And just how much of the bumpers and racks do you really use or need? And consider how many high speed highway miles your covering be realistic about the mileage covered vs whats really needed for the other end when you hit dirt road etc. As a kid my dad would pack us into mom's VW Dasher 5spd Diesel dog non turbo slow as molassas thing for our back country back packing trips. We would have 3-4 + backpacking gear stuffed in that car drive 4-5hrs then hit logging roads for another 30-60 minutes park at the trail head and hit the trail for a week or two. Then return home all on a single tank of diesel seeing 40-50mpg averages! He could have easily loaded us into the E250 conversion van and done the trip at 10mpg but the little VW easily did the trip just fine a tad slow on some of the climbs maybe but hell one tank of diesel for a two week trip was worth it.

The OP has been using a micro car up till this point. Even my 2010 OB would be a massive step up in space, gear capability and trail ability over his GTI. I have a 1.8T Jetta its been ours since new in 2001 we used my 2001 Legacy GT Limited for all our big trips because the VW was so small and lacked AWD. We replaced the old Legacy with the larger new 2010 OB for the space given kids were in the mix at that point. I own a Sequoia too and we rarely ever take it on trips unless we have 5+ butts in seats and need the space given the Subaru easily gets it done and in a much more efficient and enjoyable manner than the truck does even with two kids strapped into seats behind the front row.

My curiosity is around what happens with the Midsized truck game - if we start to see midsized 4dr trucks offering nearly as good mileage as my Subaru and getting 5 star crash ratings its going to be a hard sell for me to not replace the Subaru with one of those new midsized truck for better hauling capability beefier cooling capacity and better off road clearance etc.

I am sure that all the gear that people put on their trucks serves a purpose; but if I am 100% honest, I think I would be more than happy with a 4x4 with the stock options. Like I said, I've been to Mexico before, half my family still lives in the rural areas over there, places were until 2yrs ago the only access was thru dirt "roads" involving two river crossings, which in summer were kinda scary. I never had a 4x4, just a regular old 78' Chevy Silverado long back, had it get stuck once, because I was an idiot, not because it lacked capability. And that truck was more than adequate for that terrain, which is very similar to the areas around Vegas where I live. So a stock 4x4 RAM of Chevy should be plenty. Everything else, for me at least, would be just because. I will add to the rig on a need by basis. So if I go somewhere and find out that it would've been better with an upgrade, i might get the upgrade if I go back.
Wow, this post is already on pg. 4. I guess a lot of you feel the same.
Thanks for all the comments.

 

[toylandcruiser]

Already being done if you consider what Ford is doing with the baby Transit - which by the way got larger. I ran into a parent who just picked up the new baby Transit family van thing to be honest its pretty well done and a great size! Though it lacks AWD which is a bummer. If the Unibody truck thing happens you won't see anyone do it unless Honda shows that its unibody truck can sell in big numbers with a redesign.

The issue is size for most folks who might consider a midsized pickup if the Tacoma, Frontier and Colorado keep getting bigger they won't be any different than the Full sized rigs to those of us who can't go that big and will simply keep paying cash for Subarus and beating the crap out of them.

Size matters in the Auto markets with the most influence regarding money! LA, Bay Area and other major metro areas with high paid consumers play a much bigger role in vehicle marketing and design than smaller markets in more rural areas of the US. Thats just how the game is played. LA still sells a large number of full sized trucks but I bet the Bay Area market for full sized trucks is very small in comparison. It would be really interesting to see actual stats on where midsized trucks sell better than full size etc. Would be really interesting to see that sort of data.

Ford made a unibody truck in the 60s.


"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

 

[Martinjmpr]

Ford made a unibody truck in the 60s.

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Well, it was "unibody" in the sense that it did not have a separate cab and bed but it was still a BOF truck. "Unibody" can have multiple meanings.
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In the sense I'm using it, "unibody" means a "monocoque" design where the body and frame are not separate, and is distinguished from "BOF" or body-on-frame where the separate body sits on top of a ladder-type frame.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Already being done if you consider what Ford is doing with the baby Transit

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The Transit is considered by Ford to be a substitute for the Ranger so I agree completely. It would be interesting to see what Ford would have to do to turn the Transit into a small pickup. Might be easier in the long run to start with a different platform and do a new design from the ground up.
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If the Unibody truck thing happens you won't see anyone do it unless Honda shows that its unibody truck can sell in big numbers with a redesign.

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It must be selling well enough for Honda to keep it around. Probably doesn't hurt that it shares a lot of parts with the Pilot Crossover. Does anyone know if the Ridgeline is sold in any markets other than NA? I sure see a lot of them around.
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The issue is size for most folks who might consider a midsized pickup if the Tacoma, Frontier and Colorado keep getting bigger they won't be any different than the Full sized rigs to those of us who can't go that big

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I had a 4wd truck that got an honest 25mpg on a regular basis. It was a 1985 Toyota 4x4. Standard cab, 5 speed, 22r (Carbureted) engine. The doors were paper thin, it was slower than molasses running uphill in January and there's no way it could have accommodated all the things that are mandated by law (air bags, traction control, side impact beams, crumple zones) as well as the stuff that customers have come to expect (comfy plush seats, good stereo systems, climate control, power windows/doors/heated seats, etc) without getting even slower and less powerful. It was tiny and cramped. Fun truck but I wouldn't buy one today.
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This is the conundrum of the "compact truck" and why I think the market segment - at least as it currently exists with BOF trucks - is doomed. Make it too small and people won't buy it. Make it too big and it's indistinguishable from a full size. When you consider what it costs a manufacturer to have multiple platforms it makes no sense to have two platforms that essentially appeal to the exact same market segment. Better to get rid of the less profitable one.

 

[calicamper]

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The Transit is considered by Ford to be a substitute for the Ranger so I agree completely. It would be interesting to see what Ford would have to do to turn the Transit into a small pickup. Might be easier in the long run to start with a different platform and do a new design from the ground up.
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It must be selling well enough for Honda to keep it around. Probably doesn't hurt that it shares a lot of parts with the Pilot Crossover. Does anyone know if the Ridgeline is sold in any markets other than NA? I sure see a lot of them around.
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I had a 4wd truck that got an honest 25mpg on a regular basis. It was a 1985 Toyota 4x4. Standard cab, 5 speed, 22r (Carbureted) engine. The doors were paper thin, it was slower than molasses running uphill in January and there's no way it could have accommodated all the things that are mandated by law (air bags, traction control, side impact beams, crumple zones) as well as the stuff that customers have come to expect (comfy plush seats, good stereo systems, climate control, power windows/doors/heated seats, etc) without getting even slower and less powerful. It was tiny and cramped. Fun truck but I wouldn't buy one today.
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This is the conundrum of the "compact truck" and why I think the market segment - at least as it currently exists with BOF trucks - is doomed. Make it too small and people won't buy it. Make it too big and it's indistinguishable from a full size. When you consider what it costs a manufacturer to have multiple platforms it makes no sense to have two platforms that essentially appeal to the exact same market segment. Better to get rid of the less profitable one.

Last rumor I heard the Honda truck thing was on the chopping bock because of dismal sales. However!!! I can't but wonder if the odd bed side shape is playing a big role in the poor sales due to you not being able to use it in a traditional pickup manner etc. The pilot platform is also really really dated and the mileage has always been a big negative with the Pilots they get some of the worst mileage in their segment.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Last rumor I heard the Honda truck thing was on the chopping bock because of dismal sales. However!!! I can't but wonder if the odd bed side shape is playing a big role in the poor sales due to you not being able to use it in a traditional pickup manner etc. The pilot platform is also really really dated and the mileage has always been a big negative with the Pilots they get some of the worst mileage in their segment.

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Last I read (can't remember where) there were spy shots of a new Ridgeline with a more "conventional" looking bed.

 

[toylandcruiser]

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Well, it was "unibody" in the sense that it did not have a separate cab and bed but it was still a BOF truck. "Unibody" can have multiple meanings.
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In the sense I'm using it, "unibody" means a "monocoque" design where the body and frame are not separate, and is distinguished from "BOF" or body-on-frame where the separate body sits on top of a ladder-type frame.

True


"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

 

[Frank]

I'll chime in on this and add to a few things that have been noted.

I am sorta in the same boat. I ditched my Jeep hobby to get back into auto-x/HPDE only to realize my time spent isn't that great and sports cars can wait until my daughter is ready to do her own thing. I'm now somewhat back in the market for a 4wd something and would also prefer something that will see the 20-25mpg. I would also like the capability to tow, should the need arise. -maybe a car in a few years.

After some research, I am somewhat set on the Eco Diesel found in the Grand Cherokee or the Ram 1500. The Jeep only offers the Eco Diesel in its top trim level, offering more interior comfort than my house offers. The 1500 truck offers the ED with a variety of trim levels on the interior but the price swing between the GC and the Ram 1500 ED can be pretty substantial.

Someone mentioned the 'worrisome' of the new motor. Mind you, the engine was available in Europe for a few years before it made its way our shore in North America. It also is an engine that was practically built by the God of diesel, Mr. Gale Banks. It will be 15+ years before any real negatives come from the engine. -and I also agree with what someone else mentioned regarding the R&D of modern vehicles and technology. It is far superior today than it was 15 years ago.

Regarding the payload of the 1500 ED, it's 1,620# at full load with a 9,200# towing capacity. Ford almost doubles payload with the 3.5 EcoBoost F150 with the same 4x4 140" wheelbase chassis. Towing capacity is also a little higher with the EcoBoost, at 12,000#. The F150 with EcoBoost is a great option, but will give up some slight fuel economy. I think it will still achieve the desired 20+ everyday MPG, however.

So when looking at those stat's, I think you will give up some payload and towing capacity when choosing the Eco Diesel over Ford's 3.5 EcoBoost. I don't think GM offers anything to compete with either of those vehicles, at the current moment.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee with ED engine also has nearly the same towing capacity as the Ram 1500, but payload drops slightly, compared to the Ram 1500. I would contribute that to the additional interior items and greater 4wd system. Also, if hauling items is something to be concerned about, more space could be had with a Ram 1500 and a fiberglass cap than the Grand Cherokee. On the flip side, the Grand Cherokee offers more technology for traction and off road capability as well. I think I would choose the 1500 with a cap.

One thing I really like about both the ED 1500 and the Grand Cherokee, is the range of around 700 miles on a tank of fuel. Of course there are some variables to that, but you get the idea. The Ram 1500 ED webpage does a comparison of its competitors and this is a selling point to me. It can also operate on biodiesel.

Other options I have looked at with pros/con's:

F150 EcoBoost: See above. It could be the strongest contender for someone who is opposed to diesel but wants fuel economy, payload and towing.

Toyota Tacoma and 4Runner: While known for its robust features and durability, the payload is smaller and the towing capabilities are substantially less. The fuel economy is also slightly less than the diesel options, or even the F150 options. The Tundra will get you over the 1500 ED and close to the F150 when it comes to payload and towing, but will sacrifice the fuel economy. If I lived out west and spent a lot of time off the beaten path, I think the trade off for the robust-ness Toyota offers would be worth the trade off for fuel economy. I like Toyota, but when will the US market see the Taco and 4Runner as an oil burner?

VW/Audi Tiguan/Q5/7: Not exactly something I could get behind for an adventure vehicle but does offer some pavement pounder solutions for someone who may travel single or double. The fuel economy is great and so is the range. With tires, it could be a great vehicle for traversing gravel/dirt roads.

Porsche Cayenne diesel: This vehicle gets overlooked a lot and is actually is a contender with the Jeep Cherokee diesel, but will cost a few more dollars. Also factor in the repairs, when they arise. The brakes, the chassis/transmission, electronics are all specialized components and you can't find a repair facility in just any town as you could a Jeep dealer. With tires, the off-road capabilities are fantastic. It also offers decent towing capacity as well. Fuel economy is similar to that of the ED Grand Cherokee.

 

[Martinjmpr]

I would be very skeptical of any manufacturers MPG numbers. I presume they are probably achieved by testing an unladen vehicle using the smallest, lightest tires they can legally use. Slap a set of decent AT tires on there and you'll probably see a pretty noticeable decrease.
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The quest for decent MPG in an Expo type vehicle reminds me of the old riddle: "Q: How do you make a small fortune in real estate? A: Start with a big one." Or to put it into expo terms "How do you get 20 MPG out of an ExPo vehicle? Start with one that gets 30mpg."