Lite weight campers & RVs. Consumers/customers need to push manufacturers....

[gmacmt]

You can make a small truck handle the load safely too... Maybe not legally (in all states) but it sounds like in WA and OR you can rerate GVWR based on approval of modifications.

If you did a burly SAS in a new tacoma, reinforced the frame and put heavier suspension on it, it would work. But you would also be more into the modifications than you would be to just buy a diesel truck.

I care about this topic because I have gone through all of this myself. I bought a 1998 tacoma to build my own custom camper on, and planned on frame reinforcements, custom front and rear suspension, and by the time all is said and done the numbers didn't add up.

I now have a 2001 F-350 I bought from the forum here, and it is rated to carry almost 4k, which is sufficient for what I want to do. I drove it from North Carolina to bozeman last weekend and got about 17mpg with 1200# in the bed. It is huge. But at the same time, I think it would probably go anywhere I would take a tacoma with a hard sided camper anyway. I dont plan on crawling with a camper on, but getting to good fishing holes and going up in the mountains will definitely be possible.

 

[Freebird]

Yes, I agree there are "fixed weights".... Trim where you can, when you can.
I do see quite a bit of CAMPER structure weight that can be shed with stratigic engineering.
The fiberglass campers today are built more like boats, which have to be designed to withstand a pounding. I'm thinking more aircraft construction principles that cheat weight...plus use less material$..!
If a camper is placed on a three point flex attached flat bed (that does not flex), there should be no "tear apart" forces transmitted to the camper. Supporting itself, and what is inside, plus aerodynamic forces is most of the strength you need.
Foamed in place structural foam ads a LOT of strength to a thinner/lighter composite "skin"/external surface....
Look at the Bestop & Softopper pickup "shells" in the up position. The canvas is not "actual" structure. It is covering the tube structure that carries all the forces and holds all the canvas in place. Same principle.
Strategically placed composite tubing that is formed in place (key), then a thin (think canvas replacement) composite skin, again, formed in place. Then structural foamed in place foam to reinforce the thin skin and, at the same time, adds some strength to the tubes. All formed in place. Would work very well I think. Windows, doors, cabnet attach points, would all need the "tubing" for strength. Tubing wall thickness would vary with the load/forces on that individual tube's position. I'm thinking it would need vacuum curing of the tubing for predicable strength and consistent multi-layer bonding so you don't have to "overbuild" (weight).
The BIG problem is the cost of the MOLD, that you do the "in place" layering/construction within. Not at all practical for a "one off" build.....
The mold built could produce a "box" shape, or a sculptured looking aerodynamic work of art that is attractive.
These principles would work to build a hard side clam-shell camper, or pop-up camper's base...

Is this too "Pie-in-the-sky"....?

Addnl note: not only the wall thickness can be varied for (demand) strength when the tubing is formed in place, but the diameter could be varied for positional strength/forces...

 

[gmacmt]

engineering costs money. Wheres the dollars?

durable, lightweight, cheap. Pick two.

 

[IdaSHO]

durable, lightweight, cheap. Pick two.

You can have all three if you do it yourself and know what you are doing.

And it doesn't take fancy composites to do it.

I know. I did.

 

[IdaSHO]

I now have a 2001 F-350 I bought from the forum here, and it is rated to carry almost 4k,

Youd better check that again.
More than likely your payload capacity is less than 3k

A SRW 2001 F350 has a max GVWR of 9900 lbs.
Your curb weight should be roughly 7000 lbs

FYI

 

[Freebird]

I don't think fiberglass, Carbon fiber nor structural foam are really considered "fancy" or exotic anymore. The mold can be fancy, or not.
Moderately+ costly, yes, but think value. Resin impregnated CF is slowly coming down in price...
Strong wt to strength value, no risk of that cancer called wood rot, so should be good resale indefinitely, great insulation value.....
Lot less labor than welding Al tubes...
The big downside is the reusable mold, but done right, over time it should be able to produce a LOT of campers.

 

[Huffy]

IdaSHO, can you tell us more about how you did it? I have thoughtfully considered a number of ways to accomplish this including aluminum, composites, bonded, welded, rivited and hybrid combinations. I have the skills and tools to engineer and build the camper. With all that I have not been able to save more than a few hundred pounds from Northern Lites / Livin Lite weights. Cold molding, a boat building process which requires no hard mold, can be engineered to provide strength just where required and provides good insulation promised the best results at a cost similar to the production models. Unfortunatly, there is a lot of labor (2K hours+) required. Thanks.

 

[gmacmt]

You can have all three if you do it yourself and know what you are doing.

And it doesn't take fancy composites to do it.

I know. I did.

Your build is gorgeous. If you consider it to be cheap, you don't value your time.

Youd better check that again.
More than likely your payload capacity is less than 3k

A SRW 2001 F350 has a max GVWR of 9900 lbs.
Your curb weight should be roughly 7000 lbs

FYI

you're right, my payload dry is about 3000. I have been adding about 500 when the tailgate, bed, and spare tire mount come off so I was being a bit generous.

 

[calicamper]

I don't think fiberglass, Carbon fiber nor structural foam are really considered "fancy" or exotic anymore. The mold can be fancy, or not.
Moderately+ costly, yes, but think value. Resin impregnated CF is slowly coming down in price...
Strong wt to strength value, no risk of that cancer called wood rot, so should be good resale indefinitely, great insulation value.....
Lot less labor than welding Al tubes...
The big downside is the reusable mold, but done right, over time it should be able to produce a LOT of campers.

The 21ft racing sailboat I was involved with top and bottom molds ran about 50k each to build. The first set produced 100 boats before they needed to be replaced they could have lasted longer had one of the builders not ground down the edge of the mold. All the molded parts the interior structure pan etc all up was about 500k investment. The layup panels were the lightest composit layups used in the industry in 1995 and were based on Airframe composit tecniques. Even today those 1995 racing hulls are considered some of the best built hulls and still have some of the lightest layup schedules seen in high performance racing sailboats.

Over 260 boats have been built between the US and Italy all small nich builders. Each build raw labor and fit out costs is about $43,000 with zero profit added to pay royalties, space costs, or pay twards the molds costs. $55,000 $56,000 per build price tag is just barely covering basic costs to keep the lights on.

A modern light weight camper with far far more wiring, interior components and finish labor than a hull with a interior we hose out easily will push costs into the 80+k range for a production camper. One off builds using preformed composit panels would be a totally different type of build and not really how mass produced stuff gets built.

 

[calicamper]

The more I learn about the RV world the more I realize that it has the same challenges as the sailboat building world. High labor cost, and unit price vs profit does not scale based on size. We dont see 27-28 foot family cruising sailboats built any more because they cost the same to build as 34ft sailboats but do not sell for anything close to what a new 34 footer sells for. A small light camper with all the basics fridge, water, lighting etc costs just as much to build as a mongo jumbo camper except people wont pay the same price for the small camper vs the bigger one. So smaller boats between 20-28ft are rare and smaller campers like the old sixpac's the current eagle FWCs and such are rare finds only a few builders can make the numbers work.

 

[IdaSHO]

Your build is gorgeous. If you consider it to be cheap, you don't value your time.

Not going to disagree with that. Factoring in labor at a dismal $20/hr I'm into it about $40k. Right about where I would expect it to be if I were to build for a customer.

However, I was able to build mine in my spare time, while working a 60+ hour a week job and live an average life.
Total expenses of less than $10k was spread out over the course of a few YEARS.

ANYBODY else could do the same. EVERYONE has spare time. This forum is a prime example.

All I did was direct that existing spare time into the build of my camper.

None of the methods I used were anything new or even difficult.


Simply boils down to vision, focus on that vision, and the ability to follow thru.

 

[JHa6av8r]

Not going to disagree with that. Factoring in labor at a dismal $20/hr I'm into it about $40k. Right about where I would expect it to be if I were to build for a customer.

Is your cost with or without margin? If $40,000 with labor is your cost, the price to the customer would be $60,000 to $80,000.

 

[IdaSHO]

IdaSHO, can you tell us more about how you did it? I have thoughtfully considered a number of ways to accomplish this including aluminum, composites, bonded, welded, rivited and hybrid combinations. I have the skills and tools to engineer and build the camper. With all that I have not been able to save more than a few hundred pounds from Northern Lites / Livin Lite weights. Cold molding, a boat building process which requires no hard mold, can be engineered to provide strength just where required and provides good insulation promised the best results at a cost similar to the production models. Unfortunatly, there is a lot of labor (2K hours+) required. Thanks.

I have a build thread over on Pirate.

Google search IDACAMPER2.0 and you will find it.

Everything is relative. So when I say mine is lightweight, I compare it to its closest mass produced example.

Mine essentially is a 10' 4-season cabover truck camper.

Take a 4-season Northernlite for example... Their 10-2 has a wet weight of near 4000 lbs.

Mine wet weighs in at less than 3000lbs. And being a flatbed model the floor plan is significantly better and interior space is much larger.


Granted, ours does not have a wet bath. But maybe that's part of the point of this thread.

Many features that the industry has deemed necessary or required, simply are not and most folks that have long term or "expo"
related travels in mind could easily do without such features in order to shed weight and complexity.


A few items that my build left out, on purpose:

* two propane tanks > I only need one. The camper is insulated so well that even cooking multiple times a day and heating the cabin in sub freezing temps I can run for more than a month on one 20# cylinder.
*wet bath > not needed. We have a chemical toilet for time that we simply cannot or refuse to dig a hole or pee in a bush. "showers" are a simple matter or heating water and sponge bath. which takes us to...
*water heater > For what?? Showers no doubt. Never do you need it for anything else. All it does is add complexity and eat propane
*electric water pump > Nope. Marine grade foot pump = light weight, near maintenance free, and uses no electricity. Cheap too!
*microwave > for what?? Nope, dont need it. Robs too much battery, weighs a ton, and reduces the cabinet space in kitchen
* AC unit > Really? Most of the reason to be or live on the road is for the experience. Experience it, dont hide from it in a conditioned camper!
*large furnace > Nope. Robs tons of 12V, is noisy, and is heavy. We use an old school "gravity" furnace. Super light, near silent, and uses no 12V
*camper jacks > leave them at home. NEVER needed on the road. Just adds weight.
*heated tanks > not needed if built properly. Just adds weight, another 12v draw, and complexity. Keep the tanks within the heated cabin and you never need to heat them. Works 2 fold. Once the cabin and tanks are up to temp the tanks act as large heat sinks to help moderate interior temps.

 

[IdaSHO]

Is your cost with or without margin? If $40,000 with labor is your cost, the price to the customer would be $60,000 to $80,000.

Good question. And good observation.

The Idacamper2.0 was the first camper Ive ever built. So I took my time throughout the entire build.
But knowing what I know now, I could pump another one out for $40-$50k and sill make enough margin to justify the build.

Rough numbers Ive worked out for a baseline cost would be in the $400-$500 per square foot range. (includes cabover in sq ft)

The wife wants me to look into it as a side gig. Im not so sold on it just yet.

 

[hayduke]

Got to pick up some of the older campers, light weight somewhat cheap....