Maybe we are missing something here...

[Wanderer2]

When I was young, well over 50+ years ago, people had more common sense, ingenuity, creativity and "can-do" ability. They were proud of doing things cheaply and simply. They made do with less, figured out simple and cheap ways around issues and were proud of their ability to make do with less. I can't help but believe that people today could learn from those earlier generations.

Before someone jumps in telling me about how "they" do things and sees me as attacking their pet project, I am not doing that! The reason for posting this thread is to have people consider that there are many ways to go about life. We can buy things, spend our time finding the latest gadgets, posting pictures of our expensive new toys, while at the same time, we can't go anywhere because we are too busy paying for them.

As we used to say, "There are many ways to skin a cat!". We should also consider vehicles that serve one purpose, to get us "out there"! To allow us to see the wide world around us. To see how others live. In other words, to live life! To be free.

For me, freedom is about DOING IT. Not organizing it, building it, buying it, maintaining it, new gadgets or posting about what you own on the web. That is NOT the same as DOING IT. Is it?

Ok, think this is a attack on your plans, projects or lifestyle? Think again. It's not. If you find this thread uncomfortable, then maybe you have doubts about who you are and what you hold dear.

Just do what feels right for you, BUT go out and live! Don't just plan, talk, spend, post and dream.

But, as I have said many times before, what the hell do I know...

Peace

 

[cjken]

I think we all appreciate simple, innovative,elegant, cost effective solutions. I've come across some good ones on here. I'm glad people take the time to post and share good and not so good ideas do we can all learn. I have a huge appreciation for people who can fix and keep things running. In Mexico I saw vehicles that I could not believe could be made to run on the highway. I was impressed by the ingenuity that went into keeping them running. Like it or not society/technology has changed, but that does not mean that there are not intelligent innovative people pushing the boundaries of what can be done. Today's technology is quite amazing if you step back and think about it.

 

[sg1]

I think you are on to something. It really depends on what you want to achieve with your project. If you like technology and just want to see what can be done why not do it. But in my 6 years of overlanding I have rarely seen them on the road. The vast majority of overlanders I met have older or even very old vehicles without high tech gadgets. They spend their limited funds on traveling and make do with what they can afford. But apparently they are not posting here. So don't despair most travelers seem to follow your philosophy.
Stefan

 

[Herbie]

Wanderer, you're not wrong, but you might be missing the why behind some of the "projects" people take on. I am not defending (because you are not attacking), but this is a worthwhile discussion to engage in.

As I see it, there are three general reasons "why" some of us get into the seemingly endless loop of gadget-hounding and building/buying/upgrading:

1) Sometimes, the "why" is just "because shiny", and maybe we've all been a bit guilty of that. Your reminders about the "DOING IT" are good for this. Even if the new shiny thing brings us pleasure by itself, it's good to remind ourselves that there are perhaps deeper, more meaningful experiences to be had by the doing, rather than the having.

2) Other times, the "why" is "because organizing/building/upgrading IS doing". Before I got into overlanding, I was building cars, and racing cars. Before that I was building fighting robots. Both of those are hobbies that can make buying a lot of glamping equipment look down right frugal, if you measure in terms of dollars-per-hour-of-use, but that isn't really the point: I like the building. I find adventure in the creation and solving of problems electrical, mechanical, or logical. Before anything else, I'm a maker of things. I derive immense satisfaction by finding a component with a perfect fit, or building a new solution to a storage or usage problem. Planning is making, in ephemeral form. Sharing knowledge is an act of creation by itself, and it reinforces a sense of community which also gives me joy.

If forced to choose between two exclusive lives, one of ultimate freedom on the road with daily adventure, or one with routine, and mortgage payments, but a well-stocked workshop and the time to use it - I choose the latter. Heck, I'd probably make that choice even if I wasn't lucky enough to have a day-job that also involves "making". Fortunately I don't have to choose exclusively, and I am overjoyed to be in a position where I get to make things, solve problems, and take adventures nearly at will.

3) Finally, the "why" can be "because time". We all have only so much time, no matter how you measure it. Time on the earth, time with my child before she is grown, or time away from a job, if you choose to have one. For any given approach to how you live your life, the constraining factor is always time. Therefore, I make many of my choices with this in mind, and I believe many others here do as well. If I can trade a small amount of my time doing one thing in order to get more of my time to do something more enriching, enjoyable, or adventurous, I will. I doubt most people really think I should spend hours a day laboring in a field to grow my own food when I could buy the same amount of food with money earned in a fraction of that time. It's a simple value proposition. In the same way, if I can "buy" more experiences with my daughter, trade a small amount of less valuable time in favor of more totally priceless time, then I will.

So you're absolutely right, we can all stand to be very careful about the "why" - what does freedom mean to us, and what parts of the "DOING IT" are worthwhile. I also thing it's incumbent on each of us to figure out what "DOING IT" looks like to us, to be careful that we don't trade our one priceless commodity, time, away for more than trinkets. If we're going to trade it away, make sure we get the better end of the deal!

 

[Wanderer2]

Wanderer, you're not wrong, but you might be missing the why behind some of the "projects" people take on. I am not defending (because you are not attacking), but this is a worthwhile discussion to engage in.

As I see it, there are three general reasons "why" some of us get into the seemingly endless loop of gadget-hounding and building/buying/upgrading:

1) Sometimes, the "why" is just "because shiny", and maybe we've all been a bit guilty of that. Your reminders about the "DOING IT" are good for this. Even if the new shiny thing brings us pleasure by itself, it's good to remind ourselves that there are perhaps deeper, more meaningful experiences to be had by the doing, rather than the having.

2) Other times, the "why" is "because organizing/building/upgrading IS doing". Before I got into overlanding, I was building cars, and racing cars. Before that I was building fighting robots. Both of those are hobbies that can make buying a lot of glamping equipment look down right frugal, if you measure in terms of dollars-per-hour-of-use, but that isn't really the point: I like the building. I find adventure in the creation and solving of problems electrical, mechanical, or logical. Before anything else, I'm a maker of things. I derive immense satisfaction by finding a component with a perfect fit, or building a new solution to a storage or usage problem. Planning is making, in ephemeral form. Sharing knowledge is an act of creation by itself, and it reinforces a sense of community which also gives me joy.

If forced to choose between two exclusive lives, one of ultimate freedom on the road with daily adventure, or one with routine, and mortgage payments, but a well-stocked workshop and the time to use it - I choose the latter. Heck, I'd probably make that choice even if I wasn't lucky enough to have a day-job that also involves "making". Fortunately I don't have to choose exclusively, and I am overjoyed to be in a position where I get to make things, solve problems, and take adventures nearly at will.

3) Finally, the "why" can be "because time". We all have only so much time, no matter how you measure it. Time on the earth, time with my child before she is grown, or time away from a job, if you choose to have one. For any given approach to how you live your life, the constraining factor is always time. Therefore, I make many of my choices with this in mind, and I believe many others here do as well. If I can trade a small amount of my time doing one thing in order to get more of my time to do something more enriching, enjoyable, or adventurous, I will. I doubt most people really think I should spend hours a day laboring in a field to grow my own food when I could buy the same amount of food with money earned in a fraction of that time. It's a simple value proposition. In the same way, if I can "buy" more experiences with my daughter, trade a small amount of less valuable time in favor of more totally priceless time, then I will.

So you're absolutely right, we can all stand to be very careful about the "why" - what does freedom mean to us, and what parts of the "DOING IT" are worthwhile. I also thing it's incumbent on each of us to figure out what "DOING IT" looks like to us, to be careful that we don't trade our one priceless commodity, time, away for more than trinkets. If we're going to trade it away, make sure we get the better end of the deal!

Great post! Thank you.

I guess what made me consider the thought that brought me to start this thread was that I see a lot of people that buy a new, expensive vehicles or campers from a dealer and think that they are being creative, a "rebel" or an "adventurer" when in truth what they are being is a consumer. Plain and simple.

Don't misunderstand me, I got MANY great ideas from this sight! I am grateful to all of the truly creative mechanics and carpenters out there. But, many people just by bolt on parts from some RV store and then think that they are something that they are not.

My heroes have always been those that did more with less and figured out a way to make their dream come true without having to be wealthy or in debt. I guess that I'm dating myself, but I am still a fan of old school bus conversions done in someones back yard or barn years ago.

About your remark about "time". Many people use that excuse. You can't just consider your time saved by buying what others make themselves. You have to consider the time it takes to make the money to buy those toys. Of course, many people are wealthy enough to not even consider this. What about the other people that want to have an adventure with little or no money? Creativity and talent can make up for that lack of money if you are gifted. AGAIN, THESE ARE MY HEROS...

Again, I am NOT putting anyone down or attacking anyone. I am just speaking my mind and posting a "reality check" for us to consider.

Peace

 

[Wanderer2]

I think we all appreciate simple, innovative,elegant, cost effective solutions. I've come across some good ones on here. I'm glad people take the time to post and share good and not so good ideas do we can all learn. I have a huge appreciation for people who can fix and keep things running. In Mexico I saw vehicles that I could not believe could be made to run on the highway. I was impressed by the ingenuity that went into keeping them running. Like it or not society/technology has changed, but that does not mean that there are not intelligent innovative people pushing the boundaries of what can be done. Today's technology is quite amazing if you step back and think about it.

Technology does have it's place, but in many cases, the technology adds very little to the central goal. For me that goal is all about seeing this amazing place called Earth in greater detail.

Let me give you an example:

There are many people that would LOVE to own and to fly an airplane. But, new modern planes are way beyond the budget of most people. But, a very small few people decide that they can live without all of the technology, instruments, radar, composite parts. They want to build a simple 1 seater plane that uses a simple automobile engine. They build it themselves, learn to fly it themselves and love knowing how to fix any part of the plane themselves.

BUT, laws, regulations, licenses and controls have just about stopped anyone from such an adventure today. And I believe that expedition type camping vehicles are going the same direction.

THAT is my point of this thread. We need to get back to simple, easy to build, low technology vehicles that most people can build, repair, afford to own.

Are only the rich supposed to have adventures today? In my view, it is going that way very quickly...

 

[v_man]

I don't get all the negative sentiments towards 'consumerism' , as if it's some disease that is crippling us. Consumerism employs people, pumps tax dollars into local economies, and despite your personal sentiments, feels pretty good to some to work towards and buy things, wether they are big ticket items or toys we don't really need.

 

[Wanderer2]

Technology is NOT the answer or our savior. In a way, it is the problem. Why? Because you have to BUY it! You can't build it or repair most of it. It adds very little value to the ultimate goal of world travel. You can live without.

We need to return to simple, easy to repair, low tech, cheap affordable vehicles! I wish that I could buy a BRAND NEW 1970 Toyota Land Rover today! Simple to repair. Low tech. Easy to maintain. And most of all, IT DID THE JOB! All over the world for years.

The reason we will NEVER get there again is because "consumers" continue to buy crap that they don't need, can't fix themselves and depend on others to support them.

That is a shame in my opinion...

Before campers were air conditioned, people got out of there vehicles when it was hot and sat in the shade. Now they sit under the A/C in their camper. They can't build an air conditioner themselves or repair it in most cases. They have to buy it and have someone repair it for them. They now need electric hookups or generators that they run day and night right next to tenters. And if A/C doesn't work, they stay at home!!!

 

[Wanderer2]

I don't get all the negative sentiments towards 'consumerism' , as if it's some disease that is crippling us. Consumerism employs people, pumps tax dollars into local economies, and despite your personal sentiments, feels pretty good to some to work towards and buy things, wether they are big ticket items or toys we don't really need.

I agree. Very few people will understand this thread. I am not surprised at all.

 

[v_man]

Doesn't every generation wrestle with how best to use new technology? Did Christopher Columbus build the sextant and compass he used to cross the sea? Every person can choose the degree to which they use technology. I can go out to Death Valley with a hand drawn map from the 1900's, or I can use MotionX, it's my choice, and yours.

Wasn't that 1970 Land Rover leaps and bounds ahead of a covered wagon? Why don't you just hop on the back of a donkey if you really want to eschew technology...

 

[Munchmeister]

#1-Time: you can't buy it. #2-Money spent: your call. You earn it, you get to choose what to spend it on which may be greatly affected by #1. Building something from scratch takes not only time, but a place to work, tools and, more than anything, skills. I'm on here cuz I retired a year + ago and I want to get out there. Quick. Soon. Before I ************** die. Time is a ticking. So I have to decide whether to spend finite retirement dollars on something already built. Or take the time to build it myself. It's a tough call, for me at least. #3: Simple. You have apparently missed www.tnttt.com. That site, and the folks who frequent it are all over DIY, cheap and clever designs. There are a huge number of them here, too, but this is also the Expedition Portal, where folks drive Range Rovers for crying out loud, and and spend $40,000 on a crawler bucket that looks like (or is) an old Jeep bucket. More power to them. See #2. Your money, your decision. As a motorcyclist, I've seen a lot of similar stuff: the guys who have money to burn buying a $20,000 BMW R1200GS, (known as an "adventure bike") only to ride it occasionally and to places constituting something less than an "adventure." Yet there are many who have indeed traveled the world on adventures I will only dream of. Mostly, because I am losing #1 time and, like I said, I have finite resources. So, while it is winter where I'm at, I'm scouring this site and others, looking at everything from Cricket Trailers to Jeep tubs, to cargo trailers and considering how cheaply I could get into a brand new Nissan NV2300 High Top and make the payment with my Social Security check !!

As for "doing it" rather than posting about it, or researching it or whatever you seem to think is "less than doing it," I, for one, disagree. That is, in fact "doing it." All things take planning, prep, building, gathering, especially if you are going to live on the road or boondock for a few days or a few months. There are TONS of stories here and elsewhere of people "doing it." As for posting about it, again, your choice. Some of us communicate with friends this way, long lost friends, friends and family who have a genuine and wholehearted interest in our activities. And it's just fun. I gave up giving a **** about what other people think I'm doing some time ago. And I still post about it all the time. Don't like it? Don't be my "friend" or read my posts. Don't "do" social media? Cool. Stick with that dial up phone, your choice. When I don't have #1 time to do it, my posts will dry up and no one will miss them. Except my friends and family... you know, the important ones.

What I don't do, is post on websites such as these asking why somebody doesn't think like me? Or "do it" like me. I'm here to learn, explore and revel in the millions of ways that others "do it." And love every minute of it.

As they say: Y(our) M(ileage) M(ay) V(ary). Take it away.

 

[Herbie]

About your remark about "time". Many people use that excuse. You can't just consider your time saved by buying what others make themselves. You have to consider the time it takes to make the money to buy those toys. Of course, many people are wealthy enough to not even consider this. What about the other people that want to have an adventure with little or no money? Creativity and talent can make up for that lack of money if you are gifted. AGAIN, THESE ARE MY HEROS...
e

I am exactly considering the time it takes to make the money, as that was precisely my point. It's part of my value comparison. If I can work for 8 hours for the money to buy a thing, or spend 16 hours of my time to make a thing, which is the better investment? There are times when the making of the thing provides ancillary benefit (if I enjoy the process, or learn a new skill), but often that is not the case.

I taught myself to sew several years back, and I even enjoy it, depending on the project. But I don't enjoy it enough to make it "worth it" to sew myself a dress shirt. There's nothing about that process that would be a good investment for me. Due to material waste costs, I wouldn't save much money, and it would take me a dozen hours or more to do the work. Conversely, I can buy a made-to-measure shirt for as little as $50, or buy something mass produced and have it tailored locally for even less. The specialized nature of that work means that I could do it, but it's probably not worth doing it, with respect to either time or materials cost.

The math on the shirt thing is pretty lopsided, so let me take a more personal example: The pop-top on my van. Having a van that sleeps 3+ people was an important part of our adventure life (for a host of criteria I won't go into here). Setting aside platform choice, etc. and reducing to just the question of how to get a pop-top, I had two main options: Buy or Build.

At the time, the Buy option would have been about $8000. I didn't really have $8000 at that point, so that added the sub-options to buy on credit or save-up for this option.
Around that time, a "Build" option became available that cost about $1200. (Specifically, a very cheap donor vehicle that I could transplant myself.) I chose the "Build" option, believing, as you say, that creativity and talent make up for the lack of money. In a sense, this was true, as I was able to achieve the same goal for somewhat less monetary investment. However, with the benefit of hindsight, and now having a full accounting of just how many hours of my time were needed to achieve that result, I would never make that decision again. Considering consumables, materials, and time spent harvesting, discovering, or re-engineering the solution, I basically "earned" less than minimum wage over the several hundred hours I've spent on the project. In addition to the pure cost-comparison of making less than minimum wage vs. my normal salary, there's the time comparison of hundreds of hours spent building vs. hundreds of hours spent using.

Put simply, if I had to do it again, I would work my day job, save the money, then spend it to have the job done by a pro who could turn it around in a week. If the goal is really to be realistic about the best way to suck up the marrow of life, then even as a die-hard maker of things, I have to say there are times when it's better for me just to buy.

 

[heimbig]

Doesn't every generation wrestle with how best to use new technology? Did Christopher Columbus build the sextant and compass he used to cross the sea? Every person can choose the degree to which they use technology. I can go out to Death Valley with a hand drawn map from the 1900's, or I can use MotionX, it's my choice, and yours.

Wasn't that 1970 Land Rover leaps and bounds ahead of a covered wagon? Why don't you just hop on the back of a donkey if you really want to eschew technology...

Wanderer: I like your sentiment, but I agree with v_man it is all relative. The internal combustion engine is an amazing piece of technology, prior to that the steam engine could take you long distances quickly, but prior to that you were screwed, horse, boat, donkey, camel, or walk - heck bicycles weren't even good enough for a long journey.

now I'm not dissing walking or biking (having backpacked many 100 mile hikes and soloed a 1200 mile bicycle journey) my backpacking and biking journeys would have been nearly impossible 120 years ago all because of technology. Yet, I'm still planning on driving the planet in a giant, diesel powered, very complex, GPS and satellite communication, with generators, solar power and yes, gasp, air conditioned vehicle.

and oh, Columbus didn't have sextant - they weren't invented yet.

 

[back woods]

It's easy to point the finger. Where are your builds and completed projects that have traveled the country side?

 

[LukeH]

#1-Time: you can't buy it. #2-Money spent: your call. You earn it, you get to choose what to spend it on which may be greatly affected by #1. Building something from scratch takes not only time, but a place to work, tools and, more than anything, skills. I'm on here cuz I retired a year + ago and I want to get out there. Quick. Soon. Before I ************** die. Time is a ticking.

**** long rant from retired bloke who's realised his working life disappeared in a flash, for someone else's profit*****

As they say: Y(our) M(ileage) M(ay) V(ary). Take it away.

Munchmeister you're the man!
I've been signed up to ExPo for long enough to have seen a healthy number of this style of provocative post go by. At least one a year. I usually just ignore them. We're here to talk tech and share our experience/expertise/voyage. A lot of us are prevented from going out and doing it by mortgage/house/job/kids/school/etc. and get a lightweight adventure fix by being here.
Reading your contribution put a smile on my face and inspired me to join in
Not quite grumpy old man, nowhere near diplomat, filled with real world truths from someone who's worked hard all his career and deserves to finally spend some time on what HE wants rather than on what needs to be done.
I sympathise with and agree with you entirely.
Well said that man!