3/4 Ton... Dodge or Ford?

[thethePete]

No. If I don't have to pull the head off it doesn't count as head work. Sorry. Also, this was only an issue with the 2v motors. the 3v 5.4 doesn't have this problem. (I'd also like to point out the limit of your experience here, "If I have to have a shop put helicoils in"... I am the shop you bring them to. And no. One more time for clarity; if I don't have to pull the head and bring it to a machine shop, it doesn't constitute 'head work'. A competent shade-tree mechanic can do this at home, if they don't want to pay a professional.)

Second, no one ever said the 5.4 is more reliable than a diesel. Stop putting words in my mouth. Cost of ownership is lower, that is not something that can be argued. The price of an oil change alone pretty much seals this one. Add in modern diesel emissions equipment and SCR systems and owning a modern diesel is borderline cost-prohibitive if you're not in need of the pulling capacity.

Also, I work at a Ford dealership. Sorry I don't have any photographic evidence on hand to provide you of 6.7 Cummins popping head gaskets, but I talked to several fellow mechanics at Dodge dealerships over the winter and all of them had at least 2 or 3 in their shop. It is an issue that is developing with the 6.7 specifically. You may have been "running these trucks a long time", but the 6.7 is a fairly new motor, so I doubt you have as much field experience with it as technicians dealing with hundreds of these trucks in a day. Anecdote !=data. Once again, I have nothing to prove here. I have provided my information. Take it or leave it.

Furthermore, a front end is not equal between all comers. Dodge has a notoriously weak stock front end, and I have hands-on experience enough to prove that to me. I have put a lot of balljoints in Fords, but never at the frequency or low mileages that I have in Dodge trucks (Sterling Bullets, also).... But what do I know, I only spend 40-50h a week working on the stuff.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

The newer Ram front ends are quite a bit beefier than the generation of Sterling trucks.

 

[drewactual]

one thing i can say about the 6.7 CTD that bears concern is the quickness it sends oil to condemnation levels... well, condemnation is a strong word- but it junks it up with a quickness. If I were to have a 6.7 with all the required emissions intact, it would certainly and without doubt have a bypass oil filter on it... Dyno oil is black as can be and gritty by 1k miles on engines I've laid my hands on around here. Who knows, that may be the environment and/or air filtration issues, but it's true no matter how you slice it...

running an EaBP100 on my 6.4PSD and Scheaffer's 9k supreme with a shot of archoil 9100, the oil still has the Scheaffer's trademark green tint to it at 5k miles... that is with an oiled air filter.

both these trucks have issues on the front end... I recently installed a beefed up panhard rod from PMF in anticipation of death wobble- I had, let's call it 'death tremble' which prompted this. it's a better design let there be no doubt... one thing fomoco does that drives me insane is the lack of serviceability of joint- I think stock my rig had a total of one zerk... when it comes their time, there will be serviceable parts and pieces installed.

another thing to think about when running these rigs, especially deleted and tuned: axle wrap... I installed PMF traction bars (not ladder bars; these still allow articulation of the rear suspension w/o argument or binding) and i immediately wished i'd have done it sooner... they are that big a deal when rolling 800+ pounds of twisties. I don't recall my Ram having those issues, but then again it was a lot lighter in the power, too.

the PSD options from ford since the 7.3 have been tricky, but there are fixes if you have patience. The 5R110w is rock solid, I don't know much about the 6R, but I hear good things... Unless you're rolling a manual transmission from Ram, you're at a disadvantage in comparison. The only thing I don't like is the ratio spacing from 1-2-3... there isn't a lot to do about that, but it smashes mopars notions of transmissions harshly.

 

[thethePete]

The newer Ram front ends are quite a bit beefier than the generation of Sterling trucks.

This is true, it's a cheap upgrade for the older trucks to run newer steering gear, but that doesn't change the fact that of the 3 2014 Dodge 3500s I took care of, all 3 needed 4 balljoints and at least one TRE before 100,000km. Or the fact that they have a recall on their outer TRE right now on current gen trucks.

The post above me nailed a lot of issues pretty spot on. I'm not condeming the 6.7CTD as a junk motor. They're great, they have their own problems, but so does the 6.7PSD. My issue with Ram/Dodge is the weak front end, and crap transmission (though they're the only one left you can still row your own on). I attribue their oil pollution to their archaic desgin and abuse of EGR to keep theier emissions in check. Only fools and luddites run dyno oil in their diesels in today's age.

The new Ford trans is as good as the 5R110 was, from what we've been seeing. It holds well to additional power, and is amazing under stock power levels. The early ones (early 2011 build dates) had a TSB for updating a few shift solenoids to help with a soggy 2-3 shift, but that's about it. I find it changes shift points quite well based on the load/driving style.

With the power modern diesels are putting down, trac-bars should damn near be factory equipment. I'll jump behind the suggestion of adding one 100%

 

[plainjaneFJC]

I run dino oil in my 2014 Cummins. 10k intervals and a good Fleetguard filter. Lab reports are good. My 2 pieces of CAT equipment run dino as well. No problems here.

 

[drewactual]

dino now to dino even five years ago is an astoundingly better product....

the gap between quality dino and quality syn is equally astounding...

it comes down to intervals and purpose... If I were driving less than the rec'd interval a year, I'd run quality syn, or group 3 oils at a minimum... If I were high mileage and lots of steady pressure type driving, I'd use quality dino based on cost alone...

believe it or not, one of the best dino oils on the market is also one of the cheaper oils- Mystic... buy the barrel for under $250... lot's of oil changes in a barrel, even for these demanding rascals.

it's durn good you allow the labs to determine interval... that is truly the key to having a happy engine for a long time... it can't advert catastrophe unless you pick up on things such as coolant or fuel infiltration, but it can slow roll that slow wear better than any other practice...

in my case, I witnessed high aluminum counts, and they disappeared as soon as I used a better oil... the 'better' oil also satisfied my OCD, which is likely just as good a benefit...

 

[redthies]

No. If I don't have to pull the head off it doesn't count as head work. Sorry. Also, this was only an issue with the 2v motors. the 3v 5.4 doesn't have this problem. (I'd also like to point out the limit of your experience here, "If I have to have a shop put helicoils in"... I am the shop you bring them to. And no. One more time for clarity; if I don't have to pull the head and bring it to a machine shop, it doesn't constitute 'head work'. A competent shade-tree mechanic can do this at home, if they don't want to pay a professional.)

Second, no one ever said the 5.4 is more reliable than a diesel. Stop putting words in my mouth. Cost of ownership is lower, that is not something that can be argued. The price of an oil change alone pretty much seals this one. Add in modern diesel emissions equipment and SCR systems and owning a modern diesel is borderline cost-prohibitive if you're not in need of the pulling capacity.

Also, I work at a Ford dealership. Sorry I don't have any photographic evidence on hand to provide you of 6.7 Cummins popping head gaskets, but I talked to several fellow mechanics at Dodge dealerships over the winter and all of them had at least 2 or 3 in their shop. It is an issue that is developing with the 6.7 specifically. You may have been "running these trucks a long time", but the 6.7 is a fairly new motor, so I doubt you have as much field experience with it as technicians dealing with hundreds of these trucks in a day. Anecdote !=data. Once again, I have nothing to prove here. I have provided my information. Take it or leave it.

Furthermore, a front end is not equal between all comers. Dodge has a notoriously weak stock front end, and I have hands-on experience enough to prove that to me. I have put a lot of balljoints in Fords, but never at the frequency or low mileages that I have in Dodge trucks (Sterling Bullets, also).... But what do I know, I only spend 40-50h a week working on the stuff.

This officially recieves my vote for "condescending post of the year".

You obviously love your Fords and that's great. Telling me I "put words in your mouth" (you recommend a 5.4 over a Cummins in post #3) and calling me (and a great many others) "fools" is uncalled for, and calling someone who owns a 2014 diesel a "Luddite" is plain ignorant. There is plenty of new technology in these trucks. I will also suggest buying a new vehicle based solely on cost of an oil change is not a solid strategy. While cost of ownership does play a part, resale value also should be a large part of the equation.

If you want to call people down, and brand bash etc etc, maybe Pirate is a better fit for you. We try to be a bit more civil and enlightened here.

 

[thethePete]

No you try to coddle your own ideas and get upset when people challenge your little world. It's OK. I'll just leave my knowledge over here. I wouldnt want to challenge your belief with fact.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

 

[drewactual]

re: Luddite... I didn't see it posted and won't take part of direct disagreements on a joint 'sposed to represent sharing of thoughts and projects, but:

... isn't it an interesting paradox we create with technology? We have the technical know-how to build a 3L engine that can produce 400 ponies and 500# of twisties, all while sipping less than a gallon of fuel for every 20 miles of highway driven... it's amazing... but in doing so we introduce parts and pieces arranged in intricacy and concert that has to be finely tuned, else the mechanism flies the ****** apart... meanwhile, we look back at the 'simplicity' of engines prior, and have ironed out deficiencies they encountered, yet could never obtain the performance, and certainly not the same performance and economy of the fancy new models....

it's easy to forget that the 'engines of old' were once technical marvels, too.

It used to be a diesel engine could be worked on by the common man with only a 168 piece craftsman tool set... Now you need scanners and computer interfaces, specialty tools and torx sets... we also puked soot all over the place and drove woman, children, pets and farm critters crazy with obnoxious and noxious fumes...

there is a balance... we just haven't struck it yet... we're getting there... In another twenty years we'll be winding our engine sup in the morning and driving all day... maybe... all it will cost in fuel is beer... and you can use stale beer...

until then, let's argue... but let's do it with freakin' class...

Ram sucks... I hate furds... Chebby can't afford a ticket to the game... all others are pretenders... except my truck.. my truck is thoroughly badarse... just try to argue that and I'll lay ya flat. try me. freakin' enjoy yern selves and talk crap that is industrious... I'll start: MY truck is thoroughly badarse, but bears the badge of a furd, only on the count someone may take an interest in stealing it if they thought it wasn't a furd...

 

[plainjaneFJC]

Ram sucks... I hate furds... Chebby can't afford a ticket to the game... all others are pretenders... except my truck.. my truck is thoroughly badarse... just try to argue that and I'll lay ya flat. try me. freakin' enjoy yern selves and talk crap that is industrious... I'll start: MY truck is thoroughly badarse, but bears the badge of a furd, only on the count someone may take an interest in stealing it if they thought it wasn't a furd...

Lol, people usually argue based on the particular brand they drive. I have Rams, GMCs, a Ford, Toyotas, and Chevys. I think they all have high and lows. I do think the new Rams are way better than the SuperDutys, but maybe that will change with the 2017.

 

[Darwin]

Haven't heard of many BJ failures on the new Rams, although Carli is in the works of coming out with some.

 

[toylandcruiser]

https://youtu.be/8o2LGuzl0go
The 6.4 PSD is a throw away engine. Also expect to rebuild the front end around 100K miles. According to this SME.

 

[drewactual]

The 6.4PSD IS the most powerful engine (after deletes and tuning) ever to be provided to the public... Nowhere can you double your power and not dramatically impact reliability (actually enhancing it) in half an hour and under $2k... 1k+#'s of TQ, nearing 600 ponies... After maybe $5k you have a rock solid platform.. the 6.4 is the best engine IH/navstar ever produced, but furd tried to kill it with tack on answers to EPA mandates. It's a shame... Had the wheels not fallen off the truck with navstar and furd, it's likely the most lusted after rig in the states.

 

[toylandcruiser]

The 6.4PSD IS the most powerful engine (after deletes and tuning) ever to be provided to the public... Nowhere can you double your power and not dramatically impact reliability (actually enhancing it) in half an hour and under $2k... 1k+#'s of TQ, nearing 600 ponies... After maybe $5k you have a rock solid platform.. the 6.4 is the best engine IH/navstar ever produced, but furd tried to kill it with tack on answers to EPA mandates. It's a shame... Had the wheels not fallen off the truck with navstar and furd, it's likely the most lusted after rig in the states.

May be powerful, but it's a garbage motor. Along with the truck it's sitting in.

 

[thethePete]

This officially recieves my vote for "condescending post of the year".

*snip*

Why would resale value matter if you're looking at the used market? The depreciation has already happened. I can't fathom buying a used vehicle with the intention of investing in modifying it only to sell it a few short years later; that said, it happens, so whatever.

Also, your agument against me calling 'luddite' over running conventional oil in an engine that specifies semi-synth is based on the fact that that thur fancy truck you just picked up has that thur blueteeth thinggy for your phone and a picture in the dash that shows behind you? Really? Wow.


Well first off, I have no brand loyalty. I have seen the greatest success in the logging and mineral resource fields with Fords. Rams cannot keep a front end in them. I don't care who likes what, it's been proven time and time again.

The 6.4 has its problems but it's worlds better than the 6.0 out of the box. Dodge has the Cummins, it's a solid motor full-stop, but the cost of running a modern diesel is not worth it if you are not constantly towing with it. Cost of maintenance has grown exponentially on modern diesels, to such a degree that they are not cost-effective to own if you aren't using their power on a regular basis. Doesn't matter the brand, that statement is true.

At the end of the day it makes no difference to me what someone else drives, but consider this; what do you do for a living? How would you feel if a bunch of people were speculating and supposing and throwing around anecdotal 'facts' in a conversation about your given field of expertise? Now imagine you chime in with fact based on professional experience and knowledge; only to have someone question everything you say and challenge it with anecdotes and suppositions? I have yet to encounter a modern diesel that does not specify a minimum of a semi-synthetic oil; in fact, I can't think of a single modern engine (post-2010) that doesn't specify a semi-synthetic as a minimum spec. Running straight conventional oil will void warranties and will not provide the lubricity required, nor will it stand up against the elevated thermal breakdown and pressures in a modern engine. Cylinder pressures are MUCH higher in a modern diesel than they were in older, mechanical diesels. The bearings won't like you for very long if you decide to run cheap, crappy oil.

I did not brand bash anywhere, I have been as neutral as possible. Go run a Ram 3500 through the exact same 100,000km of use as an F350 and let me know which one needs front-end work afterwards. I have worked on large fleets with stuff from all of the "big 3"; I have worked in a GM dealership. I have worked in a Ford dealership. I have worked in aftermarket shops. I'm not just saying "RAM SUCKS 'CAUSE THEY'RE STUPID. FERD IS THE BEST!" I'm providing examples of failed front end components. I am providing proof through recall notices issued by Dodge/Ram Trucks over their front end components. I am responding with a decade of trade experience; and your only replies are a handful of vehicles you've owned personally or you're challenging my knowledge with baseless anecdotes. I am a professional mechanic. I have years of experience working on thousands and thousands of vehicles in Northern Ontario and in British Columbia. I have seen failures from all the manufacturers and I have seen trucks with hundreds of thousands of kilometers of forestry roads and worse. I have seen a lot of different things in my time as a professional mechanic and I'm trying to share that knowledge with you. Meanwhile you're telling me about the 10-15 trucks you owned and how everything I'm saying is wrong because your personal truck didn't have that happen.

At the end of the day, if you're going in the bush, you're best off picking a Ford or a Ram for its solid axle front end. GM/Chev makes a good truck but they're not really built to survive off road the same way the other two are. If you want a diesel, I would suggest going with something pre-07, as they have the least amount of emissions equipment to fail, and the maintenace will be less intensive, and less expensive. You're still buying 10-15qt of oil for an oil change vs 5-7qt for a gasser, and the oil itself is more expensive, but you don't have to worry about DPFs clogging or Urea for your SCR system. A gasser will provide you with much lower cost of maintenance, a diesel will be under less strain while loaded. Pick your poison.

Clearly there's no room for fact and real-world experience in the world of ExPo, people would much rather just speculate and use their own anecdotes, heavens forbid a professional chime in. OP, good luck with picking a truck. To everyone else, remember all your worldly experience the next time you drop your truck off at the shop for that idiot who clearly doesn't know about vehicles to work on. Maybe you can tell him how to fix it when you drop it off. We love that.