Thank you members and why it pays to do your homework.

[srqsup]

We have been working on and researching building a new expedition vehicle for well over a year. I am greatly appreciative of the existence of this forum and thankful for members posting their honest opinions. While researching manufacturers to build our new vehicle I contacted Phoenix Pop Up Campers. Our first interactions were all pleasant and responsive but quickly became defensive when asked detailed questions. When I asked for elevation drawings I was told that they just like to start and see how things fit. I explained that I wouldn't dream of getting involved in a 250k project without schematics. Rob acquiesced. What I received two days later was a hand drawn sketch that was amateurish at best and did not account for realistic space for mechanicals, etc. When we spoke with an engineer about the design, we learned there were actually MAJOR design flaws that were not accounted for in the drawings. It pays to do your homework, read everything out there and have multiple conversations with the builder. During our last conversation with Rob when we pointed out the lack of attention to detail in his drawings his response was defensive, stating "we don't do big projects and don't have fancy computers but we have to start somewhere." Well yes you do have to start somewhere, but not with our money! Rob blames the Internet for bringing to light all of the issues discussed on forums like this one. Rather than defend his company's approach to resolving these customer complaints with integrity, he had a certain defensiveness and surly attitude reminiscient of a 12 year old in the principals office. We quickly crossed Phoenix off our list and are going full steam ahead with GXV.

 

[Haf-E]

While it is difficult to hear of some peoples problems with the products from Phoenix Pop-Up Campers - I think your posting is a bit mean spirited and extreme. There is a place for builders who work in a more "artistic" manner without 3-D CAD designs done first on a computer. As you said, its your money and you certainly have a choice to not buy from them - but for a more simple pick-up truck camper, I think a nice design can be built from sketches and discussions. For a $250K project - I would want to see a completely engineered and designed plan before starting.

The issue of their customer service has been discussed extensively in the other thread you just posted on and since it does not involve your direct experience I would refrain from commenting on it.

 

[familyvan]

It's always a bummer to hear about poor customer service..... Out of curiosity what are you building?

 

[tarditi]

Nobody wants to be told their baby is ugly.

I appreciate your focus on solid design up front. Agreed, it's not everyone's approach - often the difference between a (perhaps very experienced and veteran) technician and an engineer. That said, I've often seen exceptional design get stymied by practical implementation - analysis has to stop at some point - for instance 2 components can't be on the same circuit or were designed too close and have thermal influence on each other causing premature failure... large manufacturing companies with teams of engineers suffer this all the time - in automotive circles, it causes recalls or sometimes even fatalities. Can't say it's cutting corners that causes problems either - Space Shuttles have failures, Ferrari's catch fire, Bugatti's have mechanical issues, even the KiraVan suffers breakdowns. Few mechanical endeavors go without a hitch, often despite the best laid plans of mice and men.

Bottom line is there must be some degree of flexibility in implementation and this usually relies on technician experience and innovation - this is likely a point of pride Phoenix holds dear, and perhaps the nerve you struck dealing with them.

Sorry you had a bad experience with Phoenix - not sure it rises to public shaming or anything - just a difference in approach and this certainly is not the right fit for your project.

Best of luck, keep us posted.

 

[adam88]

Didn't you already post this in the phoenix taco thread too? Doesn't seem that bad and just seems like you want to bad mouth them.

There are lots and lots of happy Phoenix camper owners.

 

[ripperj]

If I recall from your other post, Rob told you they didn't do many 1/4 million dollar projects or use CAD, reading between the lines, it sounds like you insisted he produce drawings.


He produced something that didn't meet your standards and you elected to go with GXV..... this is not exactly something worth bashing Phoenix about.

Be sure to follow up with some build pics or even a concept drawing from your GXV, should be awesome.


Sent from my Passport

 

[adam88]

If I recall from your other post, Rob told you they didn't do many 1/4 million dollar projects or use CAD, reading between the lines, it sounds like you insisted he produce drawings.


He produced something that didn't meet your standards and you elected to go with GXV..... this is not exactly something worth bashing Phoenix about.

Be sure to follow up with some build pics or even a concept drawing from your GXV, should be awesome.


Sent from my Passport

I agree. Why bash a company because they can't provide what you want? No money was exchanged. If anyone lost out here, it is Phoenix because they sound like they spent a lot of time on it and not only did they not get the customer, but they get bashed (twice) on forums. Tough business to be in... oh and funny how the grass is always greener on the other side. OP should read the thread on here about GXV and the complaints someone had about them too. Every manufacturer has complaints. GXV will expect a down payment and a contract signed before they do too much work. Companies just can't survive by giving out free full custom CAD designs to every single person who contacts them. Imagine if the world worked like that.

 

[kpredator]

250k Hmmmmmmm

 

[Kevin108]

While it is difficult to hear of some peoples problems with the products from Phoenix Pop-Up Campers - I think your posting is a bit mean spirited and extreme. There is a place for builders who work in a more "artistic" manner without 3-D CAD designs done first on a computer. As you said, its your money and you certainly have a choice to not buy from them - but for a more simple pick-up truck camper, I think a nice design can be built from sketches and discussions. For a $250K project - I would want to see a completely engineered and designed plan before starting.

The issue of their customer service has been discussed extensively in the other thread you just posted on and since it does not involve your direct experience I would refrain from commenting on it.

I understand the sentiment displayed by the rep at the first company, but not the animosity. Everyone wants the most for their money.

As a craftsman myself, I understand the process of delivering a product the customers ask for, with a guarantee, and for the quoted price - end of story. I don't do CAD drawings because I don't know how and I don't have to. (Just making the argument. It's actually something I love to look at myself and want to learn how to do.)

If you want to pay another company more so you can have a pretty picture of what their version of me is going to do, that's fine. Odds are the CAD guy has little practical experience with what he's drawing. I could show you hundreds of examples of unworkable plans I've gotten from engineers and architects. In my mind, you came to me because this project is something you can't do yourself. Having a print isn't going to make you an expert.

What I'm trying to express is: everyone has their strengths. I run a shop of incredibly capable if surly guys. The kind of guys who are happy with physically-demanding jobs like construction and fabrication often find themselves in that line of work because they don't like dealing with people. Lots of guys deliver incredible work even if they don't get all touchy-feely warm and fuzzy with the customer.

The bottom line though: you are absolutely right to take your business where you are comfortable. You have a budget most of us could only dream of and I am very excited to see what you end up with!

 

[pappawheely]

Unless I'm not understanding what you mean by cad drawings, I wouldn't give anyone cad drawings of a design. That's intellectual property.

 

[Herbie]

Unless I'm not understanding what you mean by cad drawings, I wouldn't give anyone cad drawings of a design. That's intellectual property.

Renderings, perhaps, but not full-on CAD.

The other issue here is cost for labor. You've basically asked someone to deliver a finished (or at least well-advanced) design, without giving them any money. Until you have a contract in place, and have paid a deposit, any time a vendor spends drafting stuff for you is basically free. When I'm consulting with a new client, I will talk with them in generalities and do a bit of basic research on the processor they're using, etc., but I don't read or write a single line of code until I'm on the clock. Creating CAD drawings, even basic ones, is a skill.

 

[BrianV]

OP is trolling. No one would stick a 250k camper on a Taco.