All electric Efoy conversion

I've just had a read of the article on the Efoy Go and it got me thinking.. I'm in the planning stages of converting a Mercedes Vario 4x4 and I've been looking at the power options. I was focusing on Diesel for air heat, water heat and cooking and solar to battery bank for electric but this is pricey and limited in terms of electric output. So, what about all electric? In 2016 is there a way to heat water, air and cook from a fuel cell (battery charger) like the Efoy Comfort or maybe Efoy Pro?
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
I'll Play

Air/Cabin/Camper heat: I think you have to do diesel or propane, especially in northern Europe where it is cool much of the year. We use diesel heat.

Hot Water: You might be able to get away with an electric flash heater, but I have not seen it done and have not tested it. Diesel or propane are easy and, especially if your water tank is well insulated and you drive frequently, a hydronic system might have a lot of potential. (I had previously discounted hydronic systems as the greatest need for hot water is typically in the morning.)

Cooking: Induction cooktops work well. While we have a diesel stove as backup (because electric cooktops tend to be disposable components) we still use the induction cooktop 90+ per cent of the time. It is faster and does not heat up the camper. We use the diesel for winter camping and for complex, multi-pot meals.

Air Conditioning: 90% of the time we use shore power, but we can run four hours or more at 90F/30C on batteries.

All of this is with 600Ah of AGM batteries and 500w of solar.

Your real question is whether the EFOY system can deliver the 75A @ 220v or 150A @ 110v that you need and for how long? I don't know; I can only report on what can be done with conventional lead acid batteries.
 

IdaSHO

IDACAMPER
Electric heat is normally the biggest hang-up for a rig.

It can work, but will require a monster house battery bank.


The biggest problem Ive encountered is that more often than not when you NEED the heat, there isnt any useable sun.

Winter daylight hours are reduced substantially, and winter storms can block that useable sun light all-together, for multiple days or weeks.
 

Haf-E

Expedition Leader
The eFoy fuel cells use a fuel that is not very "dense" from an energy capacity perspective. 1liter gives about 1.1 kWH of electricity. Diesel fuel has much more capacity - it contains 9.4 kWh of energy per liter - if the diesel is used to power a generator to make electricity you'd only get maybe 30% of that energy back out as electricity, but that is still about 2.5 times as much as the eFoy. If you just use the diesel directly to make heat - then you'd get about 80% of the energy out or about 7 times as much heat (assuming you are using the eFoy to power a electric resistive heater).

The eFoys are small and quiet and great for modest loads - as long as you can get the fuel canisters when required. They are not available in Africa or South America and carrying extra containers is not practical due to the size and weight of them.

A 600 amphour 12v battery is great for powering electric loads - but from a heating perspective its only about equal to 1 liter of diesel fuel.
 

adam88

Explorer
Electricity is not practical for heat. The only way it would be practical would be with a heat pump but even in that case you'd be better off just going solar and having a very large lithium ion battery bank. The efoy fuel cells are not yet practical due to high costs and having to carry around the fuel catridges. Also I don't know how much they cost but I see online $80 for 10 liters, which according to above is 11kw. Just think about that for a minute. So cost per kw is around $7-8 plus the initial cost of the unit.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
We use the efoy systems on small racing sailboats. They are low output units that use a methenol type fuel for the fuelcell. Solar is a much bigger bang for the $ "IF" you have both space and weather to have enough solar generation for your needs. I recall they work best as a charging system when your batteries are under zero to light loads. Like say charging overnight etc. They dont really put out enough power to cover high demand needs during the day. Run the numbers on system sizes, they werent cheap when I looked at them and were not high output. More like trickle charging your house batts overnight etc.
 
Thanks for all the knowledgable replies. I can see I'm going to have to consider the options carefully. I do know that I'm going to be living in this truck for long periods so I want to create something that is quiet and as close to being at 'home' as possible. For me at this stage it's either a large array of Solar with a large battery bank or the Efoy 210 with battery bank. I have written off a generator due to the noise as I won't be visiting camp grounds. The bonus for the Efoy is that it is effectively a silent battery charger system from the look of it. I am in the UK so solar is a limiting factor. The other advantage of the Efoy is that it doesn't let the batteries drain low which will increase battery longevity by a substantial amount. The charging kicks in day or night as long as you have their methanol canisters and as the truck is 7.5t capacity I have no issues with extra weight/storage. BUT it won't cover the heating side of things so I'm thinking that a two fuel source approach is probably best way to go. I'm heading towards a Calorifier for water heating which runs off the engine heat but also has a 12v electric emersion for emergencies. For cooking and heating I'm looking at a Wallas XC Duo which does both cooker hob and hot air fuelled from the diesel tank. and the Efoy to charge a 500ah battery bank along with a Sterling battery to battery charger (24v to 12v as the truck is 24v) to charge when in driving. Any thoughts on this set up? Or any of the kit? Much appreciated.
 

Cupboard

New member
Any reason to have the "house" battery bank at 12V? If you're having multiple batteries in it and already have a 24V alternator then it's easy to have a 24V bank and your currents are lower for the same power.

How long are you planning on being parked up?
 
Any reason to have the "house" battery bank at 12V? If you're having multiple batteries in it and already have a 24V alternator then it's easy to have a 24V bank and your currents are lower for the same power.

How long are you planning on being parked up?

The reason for 12v is that I currently have a 12v fridge and also the Efoy only runs 12v I think. I did look into 24v but there aren't as many appliances available. The Sterling 24v to 12v battery charger I plan on using to charge from the engine is supposed to be pretty efficient so 12v seemed like the best option, given I'd have to pay out for a new fridge freezer. Is there a benefit in being 24v?

I'm not planning on being parked up for more than about a week.

Thanks
 

LeishaShannon

Adventurer
Stick with 24v for the "big" stuff (inverter, pumps, solar, etc) as they're more efficient, then use a 24->12v dropdown converter for lights / chargers or whatever else can only run on 12v. Double check your fridge as a lot can run on 12 or 24v DC.
We're electric only with reverse cycle air conditioner, electric HWS, etc so it is doable.
The reverse cycle AC is efficient for heating (2.5kW of heating using just 450W of electricity) however you need to make sure you're well insulated to reduce the run time. We have a 35mm thick 80kg/m3 PU foam box and dual pane windows which helps massively.
Hot water uses ~750Wh to heat our 24L tank which is pretty easy to do on a moderately sized power system.
Induction cooking using single hotplates is great because they don't take up any bench space and you can use them inside, outside or 30m away if your extension lead is long enough. A couple of steaks uses ~250Wh
We use a pressure cooker / slow cooker a lot too, the pressure cooker uses ~500Wh to cook a stew/curry in about 20 minutes. The slow cooker is great for ribs, I usually do them for 8 hours using about 1000Wh
To run all of that we have 1600W of solar, 300Ah @ 24v of Lithium, and a 130A @ 28v alternator for when the sun isn't shining. We've done just over 12 months full time travel now without needing to plug in.

We looked at Efoy but they're just not big enough to be useful - eg. their biggest model produces just ~2500Wh in a 24 hour day. Fast-idling or driving produces ~3500W every hour. Our solar produces ~6000Wh on an average day and on good days over 10000Wh.
We'd need 2 of them running 24/7 using 150 litres/month.. The Eofy doesn't make sense for large consumers of power.
 
Stick with 24v for the "big" stuff (inverter, pumps, solar, etc) as they're more efficient, then use a 24->12v dropdown converter for lights / chargers or whatever else can only run on 12v. Double check your fridge as a lot can run on 12 or 24v DC.
We're electric only with reverse cycle air conditioner, electric HWS, etc so it is doable.
The reverse cycle AC is efficient for heating (2.5kW of heating using just 450W of electricity) however you need to make sure you're well insulated to reduce the run time. We have a 35mm thick 80kg/m3 PU foam box and dual pane windows which helps massively.
Hot water uses ~750Wh to heat our 24L tank which is pretty easy to do on a moderately sized power system.
Induction cooking using single hotplates is great because they don't take up any bench space and you can use them inside, outside or 30m away if your extension lead is long enough. A couple of steaks uses ~250Wh
We use a pressure cooker / slow cooker a lot too, the pressure cooker uses ~500Wh to cook a stew/curry in about 20 minutes. The slow cooker is great for ribs, I usually do them for 8 hours using about 1000Wh
To run all of that we have 1600W of solar, 300Ah @ 24v of Lithium, and a 130A @ 28v alternator for when the sun isn't shining. We've done just over 12 months full time travel now without needing to plug in.

We looked at Efoy but they're just not big enough to be useful - eg. their biggest model produces just ~2500Wh in a 24 hour day. Fast-idling or driving produces ~3500W every hour. Our solar produces ~6000Wh on an average day and on good days over 10000Wh.
We'd need 2 of them running 24/7 using 150 litres/month.. The Eofy doesn't make sense for large consumers of power.


Wow thats quite a setup! You could have a jacuzzi out back with that amount of power!

I'm limited on roof space so don't have this option unfortunately. i've worked out I have roof real estate for max 600w of solar.

The idea of 24v>12v drop down is possible though and could give benefits. I'd need a 24v>24v battery charger from the vehicle battery to the house battery presumably?
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
MARIŌVERLAND;2102254 said:
... Efoy to charge a 500ah battery bank along with a Sterling battery to battery charger (24v to 12v as the truck is 24v) to charge when in driving. Any thoughts on this set up? Or any of the kit?

Charging a 500Ah battery bank: That takes a lot of amps (100+), a lot of time, 6+ hours, and the right voltage, temperature compensated.

Your best bets are:

-- 100A+ truck alternator for bulk charging. This does the heavy initial lifting, but even with 250A of alternators, the charge rate soon drops to around 50A with lead acid batteries. This leads to the next point.

-- 500w of solar, based on the 100w-per-100Ah "rule". Solar output will be lower in Northern Europe but you have those long hours of daylight and solar is all but essential to actually provide the long hours of absorb charge. Oz and the US west of the Mississippi are wonderful for solar, but you will be amazed at what a 400w+ array will produce, even in bad conditions.

-- Decent shore power for backup. To be fair, however, I use it mostly for running the air conditioner 24/7 in the Eastern US. Sometimes in cloudy, freezing weather if we don't drive for several days.

If your truck is a newer vehicle that runs at the right voltages for modern FLA or AGM, then an intelligent relay is all you need. (You can read more here: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html) Sterling and CTEK make some nice toys, but don't pay extra if you don't need it.

Wiring size is important to avoid excessive voltage drop at high amperage. (At low amps voltage drop is not an issue.) Read more here: http://www.calculator.net/voltage-d...nce=15&distanceunit=feet&amperes=100&x=38&y=6

Finally, look carefully at Lithium-Iron batteries. The cost is high, but they avoid the long, slow, inefficient charge of lead acid batteries.

Bottom line: Doesn't look like an EFOY will do what you want.
 
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Thanks for the info diplostrat.

The truck is a 2005 Mercedes 814da 4x4 panel van, the same as the image attached. image.jpg

The basics of the truck design date back to the 1970's so I'm not sure if it is FLA or AGM without checking. Im on vacation at the moment Without the vehicle. I'm pretty sure that the current alternator is 110amp at 24v though. So can I expect around 50a charge getting through to the leisure bank with the right setup?

Solar seems like the way to go when remote, coupled to lith-iron. Lithium iron presumably helps with the issue of battery damage due to battery drain when there isn't any sun?

There is still the 24v or 12v question mark for the house area, I checked the fridge before I left and its 12v only so I'm gauged towards 12v over 24v purely through that fact at this stage.

Looks like, sadly, the Efoy does not stack up in a real life scenario... not enough oomph to compete with diesel for any type of heating or charging it seems. Only really any use as a backup then..
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
2005 vehicle is almost certainly AGM. BUT, I hear rumors that although MB went AGM, they did not reset their charging voltage for modern batteries. (Chatter on MB fora of dead batteries.) I would get a good reading on your vehicle and then compare the numbers with the specs of your camper/leisure/house batteries. Hopefully you will be able to go with an intelligent relay like I use. If the voltage is too low, I like the look of the CTEK D250S/SmartPass, a clever integration of a B2B with an intelligent relay. As a bonus, it corporates a small MPPT solar controller. Sterling Power also make an A2B and B2B products, but with these, you may want to add some way to charge the starter battery from your solar/shore power if your camper spends a lot of time parked between trips. A lot of folks in the States like the AMP-L-START.

MARIŌVERLAND;2103514 said:
There is still the 24v or 12v question mark for the house area, I checked the fridge before I left and its 12v only so I'm gauged towards 12v over 24v purely through that fact at this stage.

Talk to our Ozzie friend, M. Shannon - he seems to have good ideas and real world experience in this area. Also with Lithium. I would love to go Lithium to save weight but my AGM's are paid for and, at two years, still as frisky as new.

N.B. The tech back up of my posts is on my website.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the heads up diplostrat.

I don't think I will be using quite as much power as leishashannon has available but it is good to know what is possible. I will take his advice on 24v for the living area but like he says I will need a drop down to 12v for some appliances, lights etc. It's a shame the Efoy isn't an option, I like the principle..
 

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