plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
They want to steer you in a certain direction. I bet they figure if you could get a bare bones diesel Colorado ext. cab, then a lot of contractors would buy it instead of a Silverado.
2018 F150 with Diesel engine spotted testing
- Thread starter haven
- Start date
They want to steer you in a certain direction. I bet they figure if you could get a bare bones diesel Colorado ext. cab, then a lot of contractors would buy it instead of a Silverado.
Clutch
<---Pass
Yep, they want to sell you what they want to buy...not what you want to buy. Of course the world is becoming more and more homogenized...
Ford might of winner here though. Some guys were saying just buy a 3/4 ton, if you look at the Ram 2500's their payload is about the same as some 1/2 tons. 400+ ft/lbs tq, 2000 lbs. payload and 30 mpg, would be awfully nice. I like the flat floor behind the front seats, that the Super Cab and Crew Cab's have.
Might have to give up my beloved manual trans...that is if they offer it in the XL work truck model.
smlobx
Wanderer
The day of diesels are not over. Ram has doubled the production of their Ecodiesel due to the demand. I think Ford was trying to push the public into the ecoboost but have finally realized they better get into the game or loose market share...
BTW I have a Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel and I will put that engine up against anything else that can go offroad. It is an amazing vehicle. I just which it was available on the lower trim models but for now I think they re happy to sell just to the higher market.
justcuz
Explorer
Except for the speed and rattles , an old Astro van will haul 7 people and probably get close to twice that mileage.
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
This thread is about new vehicles.
Bubblegoose1
@PNWINFERNOPRO
Judoka
Learning To Live
My Rant
I will say it again.... New Diesels require DEF...Which is an additional cost and more importantly additional weight . Then there is the availability factor. In MOST of the world where you would actually be OVERLANDING instead of driving your Mall Crawler on freeways DEF will be difficult to procure; and therefore must be carried with you...hence weight now becomes an issue. But best of all... DEF has a relatively short shelf life, so it seems that you better just keep moving on down the road instead of actually camping remote or something, like an Overlander might do. If you are fine with staying on the accelerator instead of taking a few months to explore remote places and vast expanses so that your DEF does not degrade before you make it to a more "civilized" part of the world I guess it is not an issue.
Taken from a DEF manufacturers website (Special emphasis on the important part): "Diesel Exhaust Fluid doesn’t degrade nearly as quickly as people assume. For example, at 86°F, DEF has a shelf life of a year. REMEMBER: Do not equate shelf life to spoiling like food, as DEF will not go bad. IT will lose some effectiveness, and the SCR will dose at a higher rate, but it won’t “go bad.” If maintained at a constant temperature, DEF manages to stay for several months. For example, at 74°F in Los Angeles, Diesel Exhaust Fluid has the shelf life of 44 months." The point? Just how is it going to be at a constant temp when you are traveling all over the world? DEF wont "spoil". but it will be consumed faster as it degrades and loses it's effectiveness. More DEF needed...more payload and less space. Lets keep in mind the effect weight has on fuel efficiency.
Of course on the bigger rigs like my Ram 2500 the increased fuel economy just does not seem worth it. A diesel requires more maintenance than most newer gas engines.( For certain with Ram Trucks!) Figure in the cost of DEF and the additional $4K-$6k cost of the diesel motor and I just don't think it pays for itself unless it is constantly under heavy load; which is where the diesel becomes much more efficient. Yet a diesel engine uses more DEF under heavy loads. ( Feel free to read an owner's manual) We all like the low end torque of a diesel especially well for technical off road driving, which would typically be done at low RPMs close to idle. However these newer diesel engines also have a regeneration process which burns off particulates , and that process requires higher RPMs to generate the heat needed to burn out the system. ( Again, feel free to read an owners manual) Here is what happens when you idle a modern diesel engine for a long period of time: A little light comes on and alerts you that your regen has failed and you will need to take the vehicle to the nearest dealer or shop for repairs. I have seen this happen at the dealerships I work at many times. In fact, I just had this exact thing happen on my 2016 New Holland tractor here on the farm after I had to idle it as I was working on the field! A little hard to find a dealer in the middle of nowhere! ( FYI, You can limit this problem with hard driving at high RPMs for 20- 30 minutes as the regen starts to fail. I see the techs do it all of the time to fix the issue and I did it to my tractor yesterday. But what a pain in the butt!) MAYBE this is why you cannot get a Power Wagon, arguably the most capable full size truck off road, with a Diesel !
All this said, I just dont see the value of a diesel Overland rig with these new diesel motors and emissions! I don't get much less fuel economy in my 6.4 L Hemi (Which I bought new) than my buddies with diesels do unless hauling heavy loads of 6k lbs or more. In 77,000 miles I have literally changed the oil 9 times, the air filter once and a set of tires. Front brake pads are about due as well as another air filter and a Transmission flush. With a very real difference of about 4 mpg, I have probably spent about $3800.00 more in fuel than I would have with the diesel; not including DEF. With the cost of maintenance(Really, check the owners manual) and the increased price for the diesel motor I am still ahead financially by a long shot! OH...and that fuel estimate is even presuming that the cost of Diesel and Gasoline are the same; which has not typically been the case over the past 2 years I have owned the truck!
I absolutely want a new diesel truck! However, I want it for the Farm. If used for its intended purpose of hauling heavy loads, the modern diesel is a fine work of art. But for a purpose build expedition rig, I believe the only viable diesel motors are those without all of the modern emission controls for the reasons stated above. So I may need to carry more fuel than a diesel, but without the extra DEF and the issues of low RPM driving clogging the exhaust system, it seems much more sensible to have a new gasoline motor and use fuel stabilizers for extended periods. Feel free to try to change my mind.
I will say it again.... New Diesels require DEF...Which is an additional cost and more importantly additional weight . Then there is the availability factor. In MOST of the world where you would actually be OVERLANDING instead of driving your Mall Crawler on freeways DEF will be difficult to procure; and therefore must be carried with you...hence weight now becomes an issue. But best of all... DEF has a relatively short shelf life, so it seems that you better just keep moving on down the road instead of actually camping remote or something, like an Overlander might do. If you are fine with staying on the accelerator instead of taking a few months to explore remote places and vast expanses so that your DEF does not degrade before you make it to a more "civilized" part of the world I guess it is not an issue.
Taken from a DEF manufacturers website (Special emphasis on the important part): "Diesel Exhaust Fluid doesn’t degrade nearly as quickly as people assume. For example, at 86°F, DEF has a shelf life of a year. REMEMBER: Do not equate shelf life to spoiling like food, as DEF will not go bad. IT will lose some effectiveness, and the SCR will dose at a higher rate, but it won’t “go bad.” If maintained at a constant temperature, DEF manages to stay for several months. For example, at 74°F in Los Angeles, Diesel Exhaust Fluid has the shelf life of 44 months." The point? Just how is it going to be at a constant temp when you are traveling all over the world? DEF wont "spoil". but it will be consumed faster as it degrades and loses it's effectiveness. More DEF needed...more payload and less space. Lets keep in mind the effect weight has on fuel efficiency.
Of course on the bigger rigs like my Ram 2500 the increased fuel economy just does not seem worth it. A diesel requires more maintenance than most newer gas engines.( For certain with Ram Trucks!) Figure in the cost of DEF and the additional $4K-$6k cost of the diesel motor and I just don't think it pays for itself unless it is constantly under heavy load; which is where the diesel becomes much more efficient. Yet a diesel engine uses more DEF under heavy loads. ( Feel free to read an owner's manual) We all like the low end torque of a diesel especially well for technical off road driving, which would typically be done at low RPMs close to idle. However these newer diesel engines also have a regeneration process which burns off particulates , and that process requires higher RPMs to generate the heat needed to burn out the system. ( Again, feel free to read an owners manual) Here is what happens when you idle a modern diesel engine for a long period of time: A little light comes on and alerts you that your regen has failed and you will need to take the vehicle to the nearest dealer or shop for repairs. I have seen this happen at the dealerships I work at many times. In fact, I just had this exact thing happen on my 2016 New Holland tractor here on the farm after I had to idle it as I was working on the field! A little hard to find a dealer in the middle of nowhere! ( FYI, You can limit this problem with hard driving at high RPMs for 20- 30 minutes as the regen starts to fail. I see the techs do it all of the time to fix the issue and I did it to my tractor yesterday. But what a pain in the butt!) MAYBE this is why you cannot get a Power Wagon, arguably the most capable full size truck off road, with a Diesel !
All this said, I just dont see the value of a diesel Overland rig with these new diesel motors and emissions! I don't get much less fuel economy in my 6.4 L Hemi (Which I bought new) than my buddies with diesels do unless hauling heavy loads of 6k lbs or more. In 77,000 miles I have literally changed the oil 9 times, the air filter once and a set of tires. Front brake pads are about due as well as another air filter and a Transmission flush. With a very real difference of about 4 mpg, I have probably spent about $3800.00 more in fuel than I would have with the diesel; not including DEF. With the cost of maintenance(Really, check the owners manual) and the increased price for the diesel motor I am still ahead financially by a long shot! OH...and that fuel estimate is even presuming that the cost of Diesel and Gasoline are the same; which has not typically been the case over the past 2 years I have owned the truck!
I absolutely want a new diesel truck! However, I want it for the Farm. If used for its intended purpose of hauling heavy loads, the modern diesel is a fine work of art. But for a purpose build expedition rig, I believe the only viable diesel motors are those without all of the modern emission controls for the reasons stated above. So I may need to carry more fuel than a diesel, but without the extra DEF and the issues of low RPM driving clogging the exhaust system, it seems much more sensible to have a new gasoline motor and use fuel stabilizers for extended periods. Feel free to try to change my mind.
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eh def is like $3 afor 2.5 gallons. 2.5 Gallons lasts a couple thousand miles if you aren't towing. I did a 3800 mile trip using only 4 gallons. Topped off once at a truck stop and kept and emergency 2.5 gallon jug in the truck just in case. Never needed it. People blow the DEF issue way out of proportion. It is not an issue, unless you are actually planning on going somewhere for years at a time that does not sell it (outside of US) and if that's the case, then your diesel is going to have bigger issues with the non ultra low sulfur fuel and probably needs to be deleted. for anything in North America though, DEF would only be issue if you make it one. If you clog up the DPF it will ask you to go on a highway to complete the regen system, it wont shut the vehicle off out of nowhere. If you are having an SCR problem you will know about it on a ram way before it is a problem because of the codes it will throw, and there is always a several hundred mile countdown that will start.
DEF was never a problem in my Grand Cherokee. A lot of people just plain whine about it. Not everyone cares to Overland outside of North America. If I do, I will rent a Land Cruiser locally. My grand Cherokee got 18-19 mpg off-road, idled over 14" ledges and never gave me any cause to worry.
Which diesel engine are you comparing your 6.4L hemi to? Because if you're comparing it to a Cummins 6.7L or Duramax V8, that's apple to oranges. The modern HD diesel engines far outperform the gasoline V8's in terms of towing and torque capabilities; so you shouldn't be so surprised that their mpg differences aren't so pronounced.
Go compare your 6.4L Hemi to a comparable diesel engine (like the 3.0L V6 ecoboost); they both put ~420lb-ft, but the big difference is that the 3.0L V6 gets high 20's mpg on the highway, while the Hemi is lucky to get high teens.
I agree that the modern emissions systems add a bit of complexity and I'm reluctant to deal with that myself, especially with an out-of-warranty vehicle. But when you compare diesel and gasoline engines of comparable torque, diesel still offers a distinct advantage in mpg, even with the emissions systems.
justbecause
perpetually lost
ULSD and def have really hurt oil burners in the USA.
ethanol additives arent doing us any favors either.
ethanol additives arent doing us any favors either.
Judoka
Learning To Live
Valid points for certain. However, if we are in fact comparing those big diesels...found in big trucks like my 6.4 is in my 2500, and not in a 1500, then my math still stands. it is not all about torque or horsepower either. It is actually about the power band; that range where they are both useful. So comparing and Ecoboost I would ask you at what RPM is that produced? Pretty sure my 6.4 would produce much more usable power idling or without the higher RPMs to spool those turbos. Just my viewpoint .
Judoka
Learning To Live
Truck Stop...Kinda says it all does it not? Totally cool with whatever way people travel, but I kinda think the Overlanding term would insinuate actually traveling over land and not necessarily over highways. I think if I want to travel highways I can just rent a Prius and sleep in comfy hotels.
I am NOT against DEF ! I have sold hundreds of diesel vehicles with it over the years including many many Grand Cherokees, and I am well versed in overcoming that objection. I am especially FOR it because it does in fact help reduce emissions and I hate to see pollution of any kind destroying the environment I love to enjoy so much. But for a purpose build Expedition rig, I still do not see it being viable.
I love the different points of view everyone. Thank you for chiming in, and thanks for allowing me into the conversation!
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