2017 4runner v 2017 Landcruiser
- Thread starter Ryanmb21
- Start date
Im my humble opinion... with 15 years of building toyota 4x4s for rock crawling, being a certified mechanic, and my work truck is a '16 4runner and I have a 200 series land cruiser being currently built to play in the rocks... The land cruiser is far better built. Don't get me wrong, 4runners are wonderful, and I think that money should go to being able to go have adventures versus just having an expensive vehicle, but the 4runner is built to a price point, the land cruiser is not.
The frame, axles, steering are massive compared to the tiny components in the 4runner. The land cruiser interior is solid and the electrical wiring is built like aircraft electronics, the 4runner just clips it all together. When you drive a land cruiser, and go back to a 4runner, you will instantly known the short cuts taken to make a car half the price.
If you want a solid vehicle that will give you years of reliable service, buy a 4runner. If you want a solid vehicle that will give you decades of reliable service, buy a land cruiser.
Just one small example, here is a Toyota 9.5 rear diff out of a 200 series land cruiser and a Toyota 8.2 rear diff out of a 5th gen 4runner. The housing the 200 series is also stronger than the housing of a Toyota 10.5 out of a tundra. Everything is like this when you get under these two great vehicles.
The frame, axles, steering are massive compared to the tiny components in the 4runner. The land cruiser interior is solid and the electrical wiring is built like aircraft electronics, the 4runner just clips it all together. When you drive a land cruiser, and go back to a 4runner, you will instantly known the short cuts taken to make a car half the price.
If you want a solid vehicle that will give you years of reliable service, buy a 4runner. If you want a solid vehicle that will give you decades of reliable service, buy a land cruiser.
Just one small example, here is a Toyota 9.5 rear diff out of a 200 series land cruiser and a Toyota 8.2 rear diff out of a 5th gen 4runner. The housing the 200 series is also stronger than the housing of a Toyota 10.5 out of a tundra. Everything is like this when you get under these two great vehicles.
Ryanmb21
Expedition Leader
Interesting and thoughtful input thank you. Owning both vehicles definitely adds perspective.
A few thoughts, using your example of the Toyota rear diff.
4runner 8.2" vs Land Cruiser 9.5" = 1.3" difference, or 15.8% bigger.
Nice, but in a truck that is 22% heavier does that 15.8% bigger diff really mean it's stronger?
Wouldn't a truck that 22% heavier need approximately 22% beefier parts to maintain the same strength?
You know, like power to weight ratio? Why is the payload so low relative to the Land Cruiser beef?
A few thoughts, using your example of the Toyota rear diff.
4runner 8.2" vs Land Cruiser 9.5" = 1.3" difference, or 15.8% bigger.
Nice, but in a truck that is 22% heavier does that 15.8% bigger diff really mean it's stronger?
Wouldn't a truck that 22% heavier need approximately 22% beefier parts to maintain the same strength?
You know, like power to weight ratio? Why is the payload so low relative to the Land Cruiser beef?
Well, with the ring gear, the strength increase doesn't work in the way you are comparing it. It comes to teeth thickness, going with the same ratio, the teeth on a 9.5 are about 40% thicker than on a 8.2, this was from when I measured them for that picture above. I can honestly say the toyota 8" is already stout, but I've blown them up, but I have never destroyed a 9.5, even under a rock buggy.
Another way to think about is relating to tubing, a .120 tube vs a .180 tube. Even though it is a small difference, the .180 is almost 3x stronger.
A far as payload, it's the stock springs. Regardless of land cruiser or 4runner, in the US they both need to ride smooth over a wide variety of roads and driver preferences. In Australian there is a company that offers a legal government GVWR upgrade that increase the 200 series an addition 500 kg just by a stiffer spring. The land cruiser is stronger, no doubt about it, and by a significant amount. You won't notice it when stock, but add steel bumpers front rear, winches, racks, RTTs, armor, water fuel, people, and food and clothes to sustain for a week, you sure will see how the land cruiser can handle it much better. And fuel economy is the same when both are built like that, about 13mpg. But the power from the 5.7 just blows away the power available from the 4.0L (or even the 3.5L in my brother's new 3rd gen tacoma)
I know what you are thinking, the money for a LC is crazy, and that is why Toyota makes a 4runner/prado for the world also. You would love a newer 4runner, and they a great. But for me, I wanted the best built I could get, because I was tired of strengthening the prado 120 and 150 frames from hard wheeling. I got tired of small components that needed to be looked after, I'm really pushing these trucks, and a 200 frame is stronger than a tundra's according to Toyota.
You could buy two 4runners for one LC, and that's not a bad idea. Buy a 4runner, get a new one in 10-15 years. It's just the LC is built to have a service life twice as long as a 4runner. If you care about that, go LC, if not, get another 4runner. They are both great vehicles. But underneath, they are so different, you just need to decide if that make a difference for what you are going to truly do with the truck.
Another way to think about is relating to tubing, a .120 tube vs a .180 tube. Even though it is a small difference, the .180 is almost 3x stronger.
A far as payload, it's the stock springs. Regardless of land cruiser or 4runner, in the US they both need to ride smooth over a wide variety of roads and driver preferences. In Australian there is a company that offers a legal government GVWR upgrade that increase the 200 series an addition 500 kg just by a stiffer spring. The land cruiser is stronger, no doubt about it, and by a significant amount. You won't notice it when stock, but add steel bumpers front rear, winches, racks, RTTs, armor, water fuel, people, and food and clothes to sustain for a week, you sure will see how the land cruiser can handle it much better. And fuel economy is the same when both are built like that, about 13mpg. But the power from the 5.7 just blows away the power available from the 4.0L (or even the 3.5L in my brother's new 3rd gen tacoma)
I know what you are thinking, the money for a LC is crazy, and that is why Toyota makes a 4runner/prado for the world also. You would love a newer 4runner, and they a great. But for me, I wanted the best built I could get, because I was tired of strengthening the prado 120 and 150 frames from hard wheeling. I got tired of small components that needed to be looked after, I'm really pushing these trucks, and a 200 frame is stronger than a tundra's according to Toyota.
You could buy two 4runners for one LC, and that's not a bad idea. Buy a 4runner, get a new one in 10-15 years. It's just the LC is built to have a service life twice as long as a 4runner. If you care about that, go LC, if not, get another 4runner. They are both great vehicles. But underneath, they are so different, you just need to decide if that make a difference for what you are going to truly do with the truck.
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That sums it up nicely.
And I wonder if I had done more research when comparing the 100 to the 5th gen if I would have gone with the 100 instead. Not buyer's remorse, just a small lingering doubt.
That's the first time I've heard anyone use that phrase when describing the LC's electronics. What exactly do you mean by that? I've no doubt that the LC is better built and of higher quality when compared to the 4runner....for all the extra money you're paying for it, it damn well better be!
But when people throw out hyperbole like that, I get just a little skeptical. I'm not an aircraft mechanic. Nor am I an auto mechanic. But from the small amount of reading I've done regarding the two topics, as well as my own experience under the hood, it seems that, purely from a regulatory standpoint, aircraft have much more rigorous reliability and redundancy standards enforced relative to your average automobile, and for good reason.
Again, not that I'm doubting that the LC has better build quality, because I'm sure it does, but aren't you just stating the obvious here. The LC200 is bigger & heavier vehicle, using a more powerful engine relative to the 4runner....by those criteria alone, you would expect it to have bigger/stronger axles and differentials. In fact, I seem to recall this very topic of differential size coming up on a similar thread in the Land Rover section of this forum; one poster made the astute observation that comparing diff sizes of differently sized and powered vehicles doesn't accomplish much. The 4runner is a smaller/lighter vehicle with a less powerful engine; so it doesn't need to have the same size diff or axle as the LC200 to achieve the same degree of reliability or offroad performance.
And I'm not saying that because I think the 4runner is any more or less reliable than the LC200 (I think that's a pointless conversation in and of itself). I'm just wondering out loud if comparing differential and axle sizes of two different vehicles is really telling us much.
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AK.xplorer
Observer
I've grenaded two front ends during my many years of responsibly demanding a vehicle to overcome the terrain at hand: A 1st gen trooper, and a tacoma. One front end was powered by a 2.6 liter 4ze1. The Tacoma front end was powered by a mini van engine (v6). Likewise, I've experienced u-joint failures on both of these vehicles right around the 100,000 mile mark.
Emphasis on the drive-train components is a quintessential conversation. Another observation I've made over the decades, is the significantly larger U-joints on Toyota's finest when compared to lesser models: the Land Cruiser.
Well, I think the first thing when comparing anything, is that brand loyalty and a commitment to a purchase needs to be taken out of the equation. Some people don't want to hear that the item they bought was not the right item, and some people then try and defend a vehicle/product more because of it. Not saying that anyone here is doing that, it's more for understanding how I think., and that I don't favor anything, if it isn't doing everything I want, I will say it.
So I used to be a paratrooper, and when you are inside military aircraft like a C-130 or C-17, all the wiring is ran into conduits that follow every line of the fuselage and when a wire need to go a different route, a 3 way junction conduit is placed there. So in a LC200, that is how the wiring is built, the wiring itself never supports itself, it is alway protected and supported in a purpose built conduit, where all other Toyota 4x4s are the normal wiring harnesses with some electrical tape wrapped around it. It's the purpose built, spare no expense engineering that the LC200 gets that shows the attention to detail that personal I have never seen in the almost two decades I've spend in custom fabrication/car shops.
Now when comparing drivetrains, the LC200 doesn't get a 5.7 in the US because it's a bigger vehicle, it's because its the US, and we want power. In the rest of the world, the LC200 comes with either a 4.0, 4.7, 4.6, or 4.5 diesel. Regardless of power plant, the transfer case, axles, frame, steering components are the much stronger and more expensive. Let's also acknowledge that even Toyota doesn't trust the 8"/8.2" rear diffs anymore, as the 3rd generation Tacoma is now a 8.75" rear diff, and the next generation 4R will follow suit.
KDSS was first tested on the GX470, but was purpose built for the LC200, and then adapted to make work for the 4R. KDSS on a LC200 offers more flex and articulation stock than my FJC with a Total Chaos long travel upfront and a Metal Tech long travel in the rear. The first time I saw that with my own eyes, I wasn't expecting it, and I was just plain in awe. I couldn't believe one Toyota with a 10K suspension was not as good as a stock different Toyota. But on the 4R it limits down travel, and the sway bars hang down low, where the LC200 keep everything up high. The exhaust cross over on a 4R is the lowest point in the center of a 4R (that is why I had a Tummy Tuck on mine) where the LC200 is already tucked behind the t-case to protect it. The transmission crossmember 4.5" down and hitch hands low on the 4R, where the LC200 transmission crossmember is only an inch below the frame rail with the hitch inside the last crossmember to keep thing high, and smooth. It's just everywhere, the LC200 was purpose built, the 4R was making a good vehicle off components that need to work across a variety of different vehicle.
As the OP showed, the two vehicle are pretty much the same size, but the LC200 is about 1,000 lbs heavier. That 1,000 isn't in luxury items, the DVD player in my '11 is only 22 lbs. That weigh is put into metal, and a lot of it. When you feel the frame of a 4R/FJC/Tacoma, then you feel the frame thickness of a LC200, the LC200 is strait up double the thickness, then there is a boxed frame inside of the boxed frame! (found that out when putting sliders on it)
The 4R is an American vehicle, Toyota understands that there is a Toyota dealership everywhere and a pretty good road system that generally makes driving around not very hard on the vehicle. The LC200 is made to be bought, and not be close to anything, you're not going to get a new tie rod in Uzbekistan. I could really go on and on, but it doesn't matter, because the 4R is a great vehicle at an affordable price, that is why they sell. Nothing wrong with them, and that is why is recommend them all the time over a LC200, because at the end of the day, very very few people are going to even keep a vehicle long enough to see the benefit of the LC, and very very few will actually push even a 4R to any limit. So there is really no reason to spend the extra cash on a LC200. But I will say, when you have a loaded down truck, with all the aerodynamics taken out because of bumpers and RTTs and 35" tires when driving up a steep mountain road with a 40 mph headwind (this is with both of my trucks with 4.88 gears). The strength of the LC200 itself, the weight, and the power available from the 5.7, makes it feel the same as when stock, but in a 4runner/FJC, it was all over the place, unstable, and down right struggling. A lot of people don't like to hear that, but it's just how it is. Again my work truck is a '16 4R that cost $39k (I didn't buy it), and I bought '11 LC200 with 80k on the odometer for $38k. Given the option, I would of made my work truck another used LC200 in a heart beat.
Both are great, no issues with either, but always make sure that you have plenty of money left over to go on an adventure, because that's the point right?
So I used to be a paratrooper, and when you are inside military aircraft like a C-130 or C-17, all the wiring is ran into conduits that follow every line of the fuselage and when a wire need to go a different route, a 3 way junction conduit is placed there. So in a LC200, that is how the wiring is built, the wiring itself never supports itself, it is alway protected and supported in a purpose built conduit, where all other Toyota 4x4s are the normal wiring harnesses with some electrical tape wrapped around it. It's the purpose built, spare no expense engineering that the LC200 gets that shows the attention to detail that personal I have never seen in the almost two decades I've spend in custom fabrication/car shops.
Now when comparing drivetrains, the LC200 doesn't get a 5.7 in the US because it's a bigger vehicle, it's because its the US, and we want power. In the rest of the world, the LC200 comes with either a 4.0, 4.7, 4.6, or 4.5 diesel. Regardless of power plant, the transfer case, axles, frame, steering components are the much stronger and more expensive. Let's also acknowledge that even Toyota doesn't trust the 8"/8.2" rear diffs anymore, as the 3rd generation Tacoma is now a 8.75" rear diff, and the next generation 4R will follow suit.
KDSS was first tested on the GX470, but was purpose built for the LC200, and then adapted to make work for the 4R. KDSS on a LC200 offers more flex and articulation stock than my FJC with a Total Chaos long travel upfront and a Metal Tech long travel in the rear. The first time I saw that with my own eyes, I wasn't expecting it, and I was just plain in awe. I couldn't believe one Toyota with a 10K suspension was not as good as a stock different Toyota. But on the 4R it limits down travel, and the sway bars hang down low, where the LC200 keep everything up high. The exhaust cross over on a 4R is the lowest point in the center of a 4R (that is why I had a Tummy Tuck on mine) where the LC200 is already tucked behind the t-case to protect it. The transmission crossmember 4.5" down and hitch hands low on the 4R, where the LC200 transmission crossmember is only an inch below the frame rail with the hitch inside the last crossmember to keep thing high, and smooth. It's just everywhere, the LC200 was purpose built, the 4R was making a good vehicle off components that need to work across a variety of different vehicle.
As the OP showed, the two vehicle are pretty much the same size, but the LC200 is about 1,000 lbs heavier. That 1,000 isn't in luxury items, the DVD player in my '11 is only 22 lbs. That weigh is put into metal, and a lot of it. When you feel the frame of a 4R/FJC/Tacoma, then you feel the frame thickness of a LC200, the LC200 is strait up double the thickness, then there is a boxed frame inside of the boxed frame! (found that out when putting sliders on it)
The 4R is an American vehicle, Toyota understands that there is a Toyota dealership everywhere and a pretty good road system that generally makes driving around not very hard on the vehicle. The LC200 is made to be bought, and not be close to anything, you're not going to get a new tie rod in Uzbekistan. I could really go on and on, but it doesn't matter, because the 4R is a great vehicle at an affordable price, that is why they sell. Nothing wrong with them, and that is why is recommend them all the time over a LC200, because at the end of the day, very very few people are going to even keep a vehicle long enough to see the benefit of the LC, and very very few will actually push even a 4R to any limit. So there is really no reason to spend the extra cash on a LC200. But I will say, when you have a loaded down truck, with all the aerodynamics taken out because of bumpers and RTTs and 35" tires when driving up a steep mountain road with a 40 mph headwind (this is with both of my trucks with 4.88 gears). The strength of the LC200 itself, the weight, and the power available from the 5.7, makes it feel the same as when stock, but in a 4runner/FJC, it was all over the place, unstable, and down right struggling. A lot of people don't like to hear that, but it's just how it is. Again my work truck is a '16 4R that cost $39k (I didn't buy it), and I bought '11 LC200 with 80k on the odometer for $38k. Given the option, I would of made my work truck another used LC200 in a heart beat.
Both are great, no issues with either, but always make sure that you have plenty of money left over to go on an adventure, because that's the point right?
Taco, I'm a through-and-through Toyota fan; I readily acknowledge the LC200 is of better quality, and frankly I'd own one myself if I had the extra money to spend on its fuel costs. I've got no envy against it, or any other vehicles.
I've seen the inside of the LC's engine bay, and I've seen the inside of CH-53's and MV-22's (I can name-drop too
) and I've never thought that the electrical wiring between the two vehicle types is anything alike. I think making that kind of comparison is leaning a bit towards exaggeration....but that's just me.
I've no doubt that the LC's components, including frame, steering, ect. are heavier duty compared the 4runner's. The LC200 is bigger and heavier vehicle, and is designed to be powered by a more powerful engine (either the gasoline v8 or the turbodiesel, both of which produce much more torque than the 4.0L in the 4runner). Comparing the two platforms based on the size of their diffs and axles just doesn't add much to the conversation IMO....they're different vehicles, with different engine options and different weights...I would certainly expect them to have differently spec'd components based on those criteria. If the 4runner can handle its GVWR and technical terrain with its current axle/diff setup (I haven't heard of too many failures with those components for the 5th gen), then I'm not sure Toyota could have made it "better" or more "reliable" by increasing the size and strength of those components. Who knows, maybe Toyota did under-engineer the 4runner. But I just don't think doing a straight comparison of diff and axle sizes is going to tell us that.
And FYI, the 4runner is not an "American" vehicle, in the same way that the Tacoma and Tundra/Sequoia are. It's built on the global LandCruiser Prado platform. You could certainly make the argument that the 4runner paired with the 4.0L gasoline V6 is geared towards the North American market, but the underlying platform is designed, built and sold for global markets.
Edit: And to be honest, if you're in an area where you can't get parts for a LC Prado, then I highly doubt you'll find any spare parts for the LC 200. The LC70 is very-much Toyota's go-anywhere, fix-it-anywhere vehicle...hence why very remote and spartan groups, ranging from mining companies to ISIS, use them. Both the LC200 and LC Prado are luxury SUV's by comparison and I'd expect them to have similar levels of maintenance support wherever you go.
I've seen the inside of the LC's engine bay, and I've seen the inside of CH-53's and MV-22's (I can name-drop too
) and I've never thought that the electrical wiring between the two vehicle types is anything alike. I think making that kind of comparison is leaning a bit towards exaggeration....but that's just me.I've no doubt that the LC's components, including frame, steering, ect. are heavier duty compared the 4runner's. The LC200 is bigger and heavier vehicle, and is designed to be powered by a more powerful engine (either the gasoline v8 or the turbodiesel, both of which produce much more torque than the 4.0L in the 4runner). Comparing the two platforms based on the size of their diffs and axles just doesn't add much to the conversation IMO....they're different vehicles, with different engine options and different weights...I would certainly expect them to have differently spec'd components based on those criteria. If the 4runner can handle its GVWR and technical terrain with its current axle/diff setup (I haven't heard of too many failures with those components for the 5th gen), then I'm not sure Toyota could have made it "better" or more "reliable" by increasing the size and strength of those components. Who knows, maybe Toyota did under-engineer the 4runner. But I just don't think doing a straight comparison of diff and axle sizes is going to tell us that.
And FYI, the 4runner is not an "American" vehicle, in the same way that the Tacoma and Tundra/Sequoia are. It's built on the global LandCruiser Prado platform. You could certainly make the argument that the 4runner paired with the 4.0L gasoline V6 is geared towards the North American market, but the underlying platform is designed, built and sold for global markets.
Edit: And to be honest, if you're in an area where you can't get parts for a LC Prado, then I highly doubt you'll find any spare parts for the LC 200. The LC70 is very-much Toyota's go-anywhere, fix-it-anywhere vehicle...hence why very remote and spartan groups, ranging from mining companies to ISIS, use them. Both the LC200 and LC Prado are luxury SUV's by comparison and I'd expect them to have similar levels of maintenance support wherever you go.
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Yea, this is why I almost never get involved in "comparisons." I think you missed my point I was trying to make, and name dropping is unfortunately necessary when trying to compare, what are you going to compare if you can't relate to anything?
So you proved my point though exactly, everything comes down to cost, everything. If you had the money, you would buy a LC200. Hell if I had the money, I would have an earth roamer, and a better rock buggy.
I'm not saying a 4Runner is under engineered, in fact you will see me say it's a great vehicle how many times? What I'm saying is the LC200 is over engineered. And that holds a value to some people more than others, that's what anyone asking the difference between the two needs to think about. When I was in Iraq and Afghan, with my previous offroad back ground, when you work with Hiluxs/prados and then LC70/LC200s, one type just works longer than the other. But they both work pretty dang great. But they do the same thing, both a LC200 and a 4R have the same purpose in life, I would compare them directly. Same relative size, body on frame, solid rear axle, IFS front, even both 3 row seating or full time 4wheel drive with low range if equip the same passenger vehicles. We aren't comparing a 4R to a sequoia, or a tacoma to a tundra. I remember hearing this a long time ago, and as a poor man I never though I would be able to own a LC, but "The 4Runner is the poor man's Land cruiser" and now having made the sacrifices to obtain at least a used LC200, I couldn't agree more.
So at the end of the day, just make sure you have money to go use your vehicle, regardless of which one you get.
So you proved my point though exactly, everything comes down to cost, everything. If you had the money, you would buy a LC200. Hell if I had the money, I would have an earth roamer, and a better rock buggy.
I'm not saying a 4Runner is under engineered, in fact you will see me say it's a great vehicle how many times? What I'm saying is the LC200 is over engineered. And that holds a value to some people more than others, that's what anyone asking the difference between the two needs to think about. When I was in Iraq and Afghan, with my previous offroad back ground, when you work with Hiluxs/prados and then LC70/LC200s, one type just works longer than the other. But they both work pretty dang great. But they do the same thing, both a LC200 and a 4R have the same purpose in life, I would compare them directly. Same relative size, body on frame, solid rear axle, IFS front, even both 3 row seating or full time 4wheel drive with low range if equip the same passenger vehicles. We aren't comparing a 4R to a sequoia, or a tacoma to a tundra. I remember hearing this a long time ago, and as a poor man I never though I would be able to own a LC, but "The 4Runner is the poor man's Land cruiser" and now having made the sacrifices to obtain at least a used LC200, I couldn't agree more.
So at the end of the day, just make sure you have money to go use your vehicle, regardless of which one you get.
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I got your point; I agree the LC200 is of better build quality compared the 4r/LC Prado.
I took issue with your aircraft reference and with your comparison of diff & axle sizes; I think that using the LC200's diff size to prove how it is "over-engineered" relative to the 4r is over simplifying things a bit, but I'll leave it at that.
And by the way, I wasn't comparing the 4r to the Tundra and Tacoma. I was merely pointing out that the 4r is not an American-specific vehicle, but rather a global one, in the same way that LC200 and Hilux are.
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