2017 4runner v 2017 Landcruiser

Dalko43

Explorer
Totally. Just saying, if we did a survey, I bet over 75% of members' rigs are over weight.

I certainly hope the number isn't that high. The GVWR is put out there for a reason and while perhaps there are ways to work around it (like another poster alluded to), I don't think the average or even dedicated overlander has enough engineering and technical knowledge to make good decisions on where they might be able to cheat with their weight.

Weight management seems to have become a big topic in certain overlanding circles; Ronny Dahl and Andrew White mention it quite a bit in their videos, and I think articles from this site have addressed it too (http://expeditionportal.com/the-10-commandments-of-modifying-an-overland-vehicle/). I think a lot of North American overlanders/offroaders (hopefully it isn't 75%) do trend towards putting too much on their vehicles and don't add that weight with center of gravity in mind. I can't even begin to recall how many times I've seen a mid-sized SUV with heavy front and rear metal bumpers, tires and fuel can's hanging off the back, loaded up roof racks and every bit of armor you can buy...so not only are they at or above GVWR, but their COG has been compromised. If you're consistently travelling at or above your GVWR, that's a good sign that you should either cut back on your gear or buy a more heavy duty platform with better load capabilities.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Because if they're both over by 100# or so, the heavier truck is over by a smaller percentage? I'd buy that.

Exactly. Even more important when you consider COG: a Suzuki Samurai with 500 lbs on the roof would be lethal. On a 2500 Suburban? Not ideal, but it'll take it.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
I certainly hope the number isn't that high. The GVWR is put out there for a reason and while perhaps there are ways to work around it (like another poster alluded to), I don't think the average or even dedicated overlander has enough engineering and technical knowledge to make good decisions on where they might be able to cheat with their weight.

Weight management seems to have become a big topic in certain overlanding circles; Ronny Dahl and Andrew White mention it quite a bit in their videos, and I think articles from this site have addressed it too (http://expeditionportal.com/the-10-commandments-of-modifying-an-overland-vehicle/). I think a lot of North American overlanders/offroaders (hopefully it isn't 75%) do trend towards putting too much on their vehicles and don't add that weight with center of gravity in mind. I can't even begin to recall how many times I've seen a mid-sized SUV with heavy front and rear metal bumpers, tires and fuel can's hanging off the back, loaded up roof racks and every bit of armor you can buy...so not only are they at or above GVWR, but their COG has been compromised. If you're consistently travelling at or above your GVWR, that's a good sign that you should either cut back on your gear or buy a more heavy duty platform with better load capabilities.

Are you an engineer by any chance?

I'll use my old LX470 as an example. It had roughly 1250 lbs of payload. Let's do an imaginary build: front winch + bumper, 150 lbs over stock (more with Slee); rear bumper with tire holder, 80 lbs; Slee skids 150 lbs over stock; roof top tent, 120 lbs; sliders, 50 lbs; 5 x 33" tires, 120 lbs.

So an empty "armored" truck with tent eats 670 lbs of payload. I admit I travel heavy, so let's start packing:

Fridge w/ food, 100 lbs; battery + electical 100 lbs; compressor 20 lbs; recovery gear w/ highlift, 100 lbs; water 100 lbs; electronics + photo gear 20 lbs; cookware + stove + fuel, 50 lbs. We're now at 1160 lbs. No passengers and personal belongings yet. And no extra fuel, and we all know how much a 100 likes fuel...

Some say pack lighter, but remember this is overlanding, where we may need to live a week off grid. Realistically, for 2 people, you'd have to get a 3/4 class truck to be completely legal. Some of the LR3/4 builds are 700 lbs over GVW!
 

krax

Adventurer
You can get all sorts of cool Toyotas on the world market. Like an LX with a manual transmission or 79-series pickup with a gas V6.

For the US market, it's two BOF SUVs and four different crossovers.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I've grenaded two front ends during my many years of responsibly demanding a vehicle to overcome the terrain at hand: A 1st gen trooper, and a tacoma. One front end was powered by a 2.6 liter 4ze1. The Tacoma front end was powered by a mini van engine (v6). Likewise, I've experienced u-joint failures on both of these vehicles right around the 100,000 mile mark.

Emphasis on the drive-train components is a quintessential conversation. Another observation I've made over the decades, is the significantly larger U-joints on Toyota's finest when compared to lesser models: the Land Cruiser.

Mini-van engine? I think Toyota put the 3.4 V6's in Prados and I know they put them in the base level work truck Tundra 2wd's. Anything but a mini-van engine. It was just as reliable/ robust if not more than the last generation 4.0s, which were used overseas in Landcruisers!
 

Dalko43

Explorer
Are you an engineer by any chance?

I'm not. That's why I do tend to follow the OEM recommendations when it comes to payload and towing.

I'll use my old LX470 as an example. It had roughly 1250 lbs of payload. Let's do an imaginary build: front winch + bumper, 150 lbs over stock (more with Slee); rear bumper with tire holder, 80 lbs; Slee skids 150 lbs over stock; roof top tent, 120 lbs; sliders, 50 lbs; 5 x 33" tires, 120 lbs.

So an empty "armored" truck with tent eats 670 lbs of payload. I admit I travel heavy, so let's start packing:

Fridge w/ food, 100 lbs; battery + electical 100 lbs; compressor 20 lbs; recovery gear w/ highlift, 100 lbs; water 100 lbs; electronics + photo gear 20 lbs; cookware + stove + fuel, 50 lbs. We're now at 1160 lbs. No passengers and personal belongings yet. And no extra fuel, and we all know how much a 100 likes fuel...

Some say pack lighter, but remember this is overlanding, where we may need to live a week off grid. Realistically, for 2 people, you'd have to get a 3/4 class truck to be completely legal. Some of the LR3/4 builds are 700 lbs over GVW!

Well, I think you've provided solutions to your own problem there. If your over GVWR, you probably need to do one of two things: 1) cut back on the weight or 2) get a new platform.

IMO a LX470 should be more than enough to tour and overland with for 2 people + gear. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're cramming more gear on it than it was meant to carry. It's not a UTE or pickup. It's a luxury SUV. If I were using that vehicle to travel with, I'd ditch the RTT, go with 32"s vs 33"s, lose the rear bumper, and analyze which of gear can be cut (e.g. 100lbs for a fridge + food sounds like a lot). Or if you're absolutely deadset on keeping all of that armor and gear, get a good offroad trailer to free up some payload. Your mpg can't possibly be doing well with that kind of setup either.

As you point out at the end, there are more heavy duty platforms that can handle those kinds of payloads; and for that reason full sized and 3/4 ton pickups are becoming more and more popular for this type of travel.

Someone in that kind of situation definitely has options to deal with the payload issue. I'm not an auto engineer (and I'm willing to bet most others on here aren't either) so I'm not going to try and guess where I can cheat with extra weight. When it comes to mpg, handling, braking, stability, and overall safety, it's just not an issue I want to take a chance on. If you're okay doing that, that's your choice I guess.

Edit: and to be fair, I think your specific situation (with 2 people + belongings you're probably ~200-300lbs over GVWR) is not the end of the world. I believe manufacturers have built in some amount of safety margin when establishing the payload and towing specs. I personally don't like that much weight purely from a mpg standpoint, but I guess it's not necessarily a huge safety issue. But when you start talking about being 700lbs+ over GVWR (like with the LR's you mentioned) I really think it's time to seriously consider cutting some weight or looking for a new platform. I don't know where the line gets drawn, but at a certain point, owners need to admit to themselves that they've put more gear on their rigs than what they were designed for.
 
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Highlander

The Strong, Silent Type
@texascrane

Sir,

My place of residence, which is no longer NYC and has been so past 2 years, has nothing to do with the things we are discussing here.
If you think that carrying a lots of stuff, of which 70% is useless, is necessary make an argument and I'll listen to it carefully.
 

TrekboxX

Supporting Sponsor - TrekboxX
Re: the original comparison. Value for money is in the eye of the beholder. We have a new 2016 4runner and a 2003 100 series with 165k. There's no comparison for me. The LC is way more comfortable, heavy duty, drives nicer (solid/planted)- you name it. The runner is a great little scoot, but it's no land cruiser. It is like comparing a camry to a MB. Having said that if I HAD to buy new for an expo build I'd go 4runner. But if I had a choice I'd take a used LC anyday.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
I'm not. That's why I do tend to follow the OEM recommendations when it comes to payload and towing.

You think like an engineer, which is good. I'm an ME, and naturally have massive respect for the engineering hours OEMs put into a production vehicle.

However, we should also realize the limitations engineers have in the corporate hierarchy. Not every payload and towing spec is driven by engineering; legal and marketing have the final say, for good and bad reasons.


Well, I think you've provided solutions to your own problem there. If your over GVWR, you probably need to do one of two things: 1) cut back on the weight or 2) get a new platform.

IMO a LX470 should be more than enough to tour and overland with for 2 people + gear. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're cramming more gear on it than it was meant to carry. It's not a UTE or pickup. It's a luxury SUV. If I were using that vehicle to travel with, I'd ditch the RTT, go with 32"s vs 33"s, lose the rear bumper, and analyze which of gear can be cut (e.g. 100lbs for a fridge + food sounds like a lot). Or if you're absolutely deadset on keeping all of that armor and gear, get a good offroad trailer to free up some payload. Your mpg can't possibly be doing well with that kind of setup either.
......
Someone in that kind of situation definitely has options to deal with the payload issue. I'm not an auto engineer (and I'm willing to bet most others on here aren't either) so I'm not going to try and guess where I can cheat with extra weight. When it comes to mpg, handling, braking, stability, and overall safety, it's just not an issue I want to take a chance on. If you're okay doing that, that's your choice I guess.
......


Keep in mind the above was NOT my rig. It's a fictional build to explain why I feel 75% of rigs on here are over GVW.

My LC was bone stock except for 32s, and has taken me to where ever I needed to go (I don't rock crawl). My current platform? A lowly 2006 Exporer with the 3rd row removed. Payload is ~1500 lbs, and I've never gotten anywhere near.

As to cheat points, here is my somewhat educated opinion: go by axle capacities (GAWRs). This is one area where marketing and legal departments care least about - how many Superbowl commercials brag about the rear GAWR on a pickup?

In the DOT commercial world, payload is ONLY determined by GAWRs. A trucks GVW is always equal to sum of its GAWRs. A Kenworth does not have "payload" anywhere in its brochure. The GAWR rating from an OEM encompasses all of the following: suspension capacity, braking capacity, tire capacity, and bearing / drivetrain capacity. Therefore, as long as you don't exceed your front and rear GAWRs, you haven't exceeded the safety design criteria of your truck.

I'll provide an example: why does a 6.4 Hemi RAM 2500 have more payload that a 5.7 Hemi? Axles, frame, transmission, transfer case, every component is identical, except the softer springs purposely chosen for the 5.7 truck. Obviously this is a marketing driven specification. They want you to upgrade to the larger engine.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Going by what I just mentioned above, let's look at the axle capacities between a 4runner and 200 series:

4runner: front GAWR 2998 lbs rear GAWR 3439 lbs

LX570: front GAWR 3595 lbs rear GAWR 4300 lbs

The 200 series has 600 lbs more front axle capacity, and 861 lbs more rear axle capacity.

The combined difference (1458 lbs) is greater than their GVW difference (1085 lbs). This tells me the LC has more room built into its payload spec, i.e. more tolerant to "overloading".

Or if you decides to stick with GVWR religiously, the LC is more tolerant to load placement. You can shift heavy cargo further towards the rear or front without overloading an axle.

Furthermore, since braking performance is designed into GAWR, then LC has better braking capacity when both rigs are loaded to GVWR.
 

Clutch

<---Pass

oooo....I take a 76 for the wife, and a 79 single cab for me.
drool.gif
 

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