Stockton Wheels.....the latest dope.

[skippythedog]

Update Sept. 11, 2017....Spoke with Andre at Stockton today. He has been in contact w/ a new supplier for his "barrels" (rim material)....his current rim stock thickness is .15xx," normally used on 3/4 ton trucks....not sufficient for the FG needs. He wants his new supplier to provide him with rim stock in .18xx" and thicker centers which should be more than adequate for FG applications....No precise time frame this moment.... As of today, Earthcruiser has absolutely no idea when they will receive their new shipment of their alloy 6 lug 16"s after sending back a container load of mistakenly ordered/produced 5 lug wheels last Winter..... more later.





After acquiring my FG last Summer, I made many inquiries on SRW options.
I had ruled out the 19.5" wheels because of limited tire options, weight and inability to increase tire diameter enough to drop my rpm at my desired cruise speed of 60Mph...I'm looking for 35" tires at a minimum and preferably 37" diameter tires.

Initial inquiries to Stockton in June yielded no real results. (They simply didn't seem familiar w/ the FG SRW setup despite previous jobs/invoices). To add to that, there was some militant scuttlebutt on the blogs from someone that had some failed wheels on an FG. Stocktons owner had passed away a few years back, seemingly taking the recipe with him.

A few other inquiries (alloy wheels) yielded a similar problem in the field and somewhat cryptic responses from the alleged suppliers about failure issues. One actually wrote here on the forum beckoning me to travel to SEMA if I wanted to talk to him about it, as opposed to simply addressing the issue on the forum or even investigating and writing me personally. Not much chance they're gonna see any of my dollars.

After getting indications of other relatively recent Stockton builds and one forum member here graciously posting his specs/invoice#, I delved a bit further.

I had the pleasure of speaking today w/ Andre at Stockton Wheels who's now running the front end. He's been with the company for a while and was the primary builder of some of the FG wheels for the deceased former owner.

He admitted there was a problem w/ a particular set of 16" wheels because of the thinner centers required, but that they have discovered a solution that is working well. He can build these wheels in 16," 17" and 19.5" w/ widths of 8.25" or 9."

Tentatively, I have decided on 17" wheels because I have some concerns about clearance issues to the drums on 16" wheels (brought to light by an owner of the U.S. sourced 16"alloys who had tape weight issues). I'd like to do 16" wheels if certain about the clearances. The steel wheels are thinner however and can use ordinary clip-on weights which will simplify balance issues. Ceramic or stainless beads are an option as well.

He quoted me $335 per wheel (17x9) w/ dual valve stems, add $60 each for powdercoating. About 40lbs each and can be shipped individually boxed or palletized.

So, that's the latest.

I'd love to hear from anyone w/ input on 16" vs 17" tires.....

 

[SkiFreak]

I had ruled out the 19.5" wheels because of limited tire options, weight and inability to increase tire diameter enough to drop my rpm at my desired cruise speed of 60Mph...I'm looking for 35" tires at a minimum and preferably 37" diameter tires.

No idea how you came to this determination, as it is plainly wrong.
I have the ATW 19.5" alloy rims with M608Z Toyo tyres, which are just under 36".
I can, and do, cruise on the highway at 100 km/h (62.5 MPH) @ 2450 RPM in my FG84 (FG140 equivalent).

 

[javajoe79]

I recentered some Hummer wheels for my NPR. Trail Worthy Fab sells different centers to match different bolt patterns. I bet they would build you a set to your specs if you called them. You end up with a 16.5" wheel that is double beadlock capable. I built mine with the PVC beadlock insert.

 

[skippythedog]

No idea how you came to this determination, as it is plainly wrong.
I have the ATW 19.5" alloy rims with M608Z Toyo tyres, which are just under 36".
I can, and do, cruise on the highway at 100 km/h (62.5 MPH) @ 2450 RPM in my FG84 (FG140 equivalent).

Thanks for that info...My rig is 95+% on road. While the 19.5 tires have weight ratings (per tire) in the 6000lb+ range, most don't need that much on a truck that is only rated for 14,050 lbs...Those 19.5 tires (Of which there are very limited choices) weigh about 90lbs each. The steel wheels weigh about 75lbs (as contrasted to 40lb 17" wheels w/ 60lb tires)...That is a boatload of unsprung weight, not to mention poor balancing and rougher ride.

 

[tgreening]

I wouldn't recommend the recentered Hmmv Wheels, price wise he's not too far off with the Stocktons and he can get them however he wants them.

The military tires are getting harder to find in good condition and the prices are on the upward trend to stupid. Retail choices in the 16.5 category are limited at best and already in the stupid category when it comes to cost.

 

[gait]

That things fail never surprises me. Modifying anything is always interesting. And comes with risks that are subtly different to high volume manufacture and design. Then again, one-off custom mods can be lots of fun. I added off-the-shelf replacement in event of failure. Anywhere in the world. And once a choice is made it can be costly (in time and $) to change.

Logically, how much unlimited choice of tyres is required? I currently have 5 unevenly worn tyres and an unrepairable one. I don't need 6 new tyres, two will suffice. The tyre model I have are available off the shelf. In the unlikely event of the model going out of production there are other choices - I only need one. This situation can, and will, occur once a decision on wheels and tyres is implemented.

In terms of tyres suitable for the roads/tracks I travel on there isn't one, just compromises. In the extreme, it would be nice to have a tyre that sticks like glue to the tracks that become greasy with a mm of rain but they seem a tad elusive (the tyres not the tracks), no matter what diameter. I'm happy I'm equipped with mobile home so can wait, and do. I have time to adopt a policy of don't drive at night or in rain.

I was a bit relieved that I only had one puncture (side wall) in 34 countries. That may in part be due to wheels/tyres being over-rated for the task - or perhaps more or less about right, depending on perspective. My vehicle is about 4500kg for bureaucratic reasons. I doubt tyre/wheel reliability had much to do with the road/track conditions or driving style. I did lose three wheel studs from a rear wheel. About 6,000km after a tyre change. I noticed it was a bit wobbly to drive. Fortunate the over rated wheel centre didn't deform. An unusual occurrence, but then some failures are unexpected in some way.

With my vehicle and usage I rarely find the need to travel at 100km, mostly the roads/tracks I travel predicate against it. At least in my view. No matter how fast I travel there's always someone willing to travel faster. If I wanted to travel fast I wouldn't have bought a truck.

Of course the truck is uncomfortable. It was designed that way. I think I've improved the comfort, but that's not hard. I doubt that I'll ever improve it sufficiently, there's always more. Maybe a hovercraft, or maglev, might satisfy me.

At best you are arriving at a set of compromises that best satisfy your requirements. No matter how hard you try you will never satisfy all your requirements. Others have made different decisions which satisfy most of their different requirements. They are also aware of the many shortcomings that results in. As you will become when your decisions are implemented.

While worrying about whether there is sufficient clearance for a particular type of weight with a particular type of wheel and extrapolating to "the wheels are unsuitable" is one method for decision making its probably not an approach I would take. IMHO (and experience) extrapolation from one data point is fraught. I prefer the "people do silly things" analysis.

To maybe put it in perspective. Did I tell you springs break? When Hungarian leaf spring repairers removed my front wheels they successfully broke one of the valve stems as there is limited clearance. It took several hours to source a replacement. Not easy. Rather than changing my rims, recommending others use different rims, and filling fora with my concerns, I now rotate wheels so inside stem is at the bottom before removing, and of course carry a couple of spare valve stems. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Bris31]

Julian, thanks for that. I take time and read your generalization on topics with interest :coffeedrink: so much knowledge and experience is there (no flattering).

 

[SkiFreak]

While the 19.5 tires have weight ratings (per tire) in the 6000lb+ range, most don't need that much on a truck that is only rated for 14,050 lbs...

One significant detail that is continually overlooked here when it comes to the wheel/tyre rating is that things can be very different on road than they are off road.
If your primary intent is to have a wheel/tyre combination that allows you to cruise the highway at higher speeds, then the rating will be of less significance. Also, if you plan on just going on decent dirt roads and a bit of sand, the same applies.

However, and here is the gotcha... if your plans include doing any serious off roading where extreme articulation will occur then the reality is that the weight over one individual wheel/tyre can be increased significantly.
As an example... going uphill on a heavily uneven, rutted track, a significant proportion of the truck's weight can shift to an individual rear wheel. In that situation, if you then hit a large rock, a significant shock load may also be applied to the weight loaded wheel/tyre.
I am a big fan of over-engineering, as anyone who knows me would know. Having a higher safety margin is my preference, but this might not be the same for others.

At the end of the day, what works for me may not be suitable for you, and vice versa. Only you know what you want to do with your truck and what you will be happy with.

And if I get on my soapbox...
What upsets me is when people give negative assessments of equipment based on hearsay, not factual evidence or their own personal experiences. There are many reasons a product can fail and unless you have a complete factual understanding of why this has occurred, I do not think it is right to automatically draw negative conclusions.
Just because something is not right for you does not mean it is rubbish; it's just not right for you. I know many people that are happily running Alan's wheels and have never had issues. Personally, I think the real world evidence speaks for itself.
My 2c worth...

 

[Decanter]

I was in the same boat. What size wheel and what tire and vice versa. My thought process concerned loads, environment, price and simplicity. Simplicity dictated a reversible wheel so front to back swaps are possible. Loads are discussed above. I'm conservative but none of the wheels you mention are too far out of the box until as was stated you get offroad in off camber situations. I doubt it would fail but I like margin for error. That wasn't the reason I went the way I did. I will spend a lot of time on highway and little in the thick of it. I'm sure lots of forest roads, etc. I had 17" toyo MT's on my Dodge 2500 and a Jeep. It's a great tire. I lost over 1mpg switching from an AT to the Toyo MT on the Dodge though. The Toyo's don't last as long as an AT on a Dodge either. I just switched the dodge to 19.5's and Toyo M608Z's. The 34". I picked up my MPG's to at or above where they were with my Michelin AT's and I have a more aggressive tire. I also feel they will last much longer than the Toyo MT's. Time will tell. I went with the M608Z 35's for the Fuso and Balancemaster dynamic balancers. Smooth as glass. There is no wrong answer IMO.

 

[SkiFreak]

I went with the M608Z 35's for the Fuso and Balancemaster dynamic balancers. Smooth as glass.

Do you have any photos of the exact balancers you are using?

 

[skippythedog]

Wow! Great bit of advice from "Gait" above re: positioning inner valve stems (if any) for wheel removal...

Never would have thought of that....(but that's why we noobs throw that stuff out here)....In fact, that freaks me out sufficiently to eliminate the dual valve stems from consideration. If I ever need to air down, the truck has plenty of clearance underneath and I might welcome some respite in the shade or cool mud. Less stuff to go wrong too....and I'm definitely not too honorable to learn at your expense.

As to badmouthing equipment, without personal experience, I make no apologies. I communicated directly with the complainant, then took those facts to the purveyor who was evasive. Then their supplier challenged me on this forum, complained of being offended, but would not comment on the issue, made no effort to explore the issue and told me instead to go to the SEMA Show (nearly a year from now) on my dime, if I wanted to talk to him about it... As if.

I will continue to report this to any prospective SRW buyers I come across, whether he eventually answers my query or not. My account is entirely factual and not embellished in any way. I have no axe to grind.


So, for now at least, it appears that we (in the U.S.) again have a source for a domestically produced steel SRW set in a variety of sizes and can communicate directly with the builder (always a nice thing).

Andre at Stockton seemed honest, forthright and willing to explore design changes, improvements and preferences to suit the customer.

I hope that in the upcoming months we'll see some reports on the forum about their wheels.

 

[Decanter]

Do you have any photos of the exact balancers you are using?

http://store.balancemasters.com/osCommerce/product_info.php?cPath=23_46&products_id=159

 

[gait]

here's an example of a dual air chuck
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-6-in-Dual-Air-Chuck-HDA50900AV/100050572

check that outer (when on front) valve is accessible with dual chuck (or whatever) from both sides. Never know when you may need it.

If you don't know you will need to air down you probably don't need singles.

There's a time to stop acting like a dog with a bone.

 

[gait]

Julian, thanks for that. I take time and read your generalization on topics with interest :coffeedrink: so much knowledge and experience is there (no flattering).

thanks

 

[SkiFreak]

Thanks for the pic John.
Do you run the same balancer on the rears, or is a different style?
Is the price shown for each balancer or a set?