DStar DMR or Fusion + HF

Time to do some mobile radio upgrading.

I am going to replace my old and tired FT-100 HF rig with an FT-991A so this now gives me Fusion. I currently only operate analog FM. So now the question is do I want to go with DStar or DMR?

Currently there are no DMR Dual Band Mobile radios. There are commercial DMR radios, but those are usually channelized and limited to one band. Dual band radio is important to me as sometimes I run an APRS tracker. Typically on a dual band radio I will run it Vhf/Vhf when using APRS. Given my needs it looks like I should go with an Icom ID-5100ADLX and that will give me DStar capabilities.

Until technology progresses enough to give us a dual band multi mode mobile radio the only option to make use of all modes is to run a stack of radios. I have no interest in doing that.

I may not be aware of every device or radio out there. I know there are some prototypes in development. Does anyone else know of a device or radio that might give me Dstar and DMR without an internet connection? Have no interest in HTs.
 

Frdmskr

Adventurer
I have a 5100aDLX. It is a great radio with great features. You'll like it. DO NOT BUY any programming kit. Get an 8gb SD card and use that to program it. It's easier and cheaper. The DR mode is phenomenal when loaded with files from DStarinfo. They have analog and DStar repeater data for all of North America. That alone would be worth it. No it doesn't have a chassis bracket for some stupid reason. I use it without. Also the screen is not perfect but I've not had complaints about it using it day and night; sunny and dreary; clear and rain/snow.

But whether to do DStar or DMR is another question. I'd have skipped the Yaesu because Fusion is not used near me nor is there interest. HRO can't move Fusion stuff here other than as analog gear.

There is a lot of DStar stuff in the area which I use but not a lot of local users compared to 8-10 yrs ago. DMR has a big foot hold as well though I am not on there yet. Great coverage for HT and mobile but split between VHF and UHF so not into buying 2 radios. Again not a huge local population. Then again we have quite a bit of P25, not popular elsewhere.


The basic reality is this.

Both do networked repeaters.
Both have digital audio. DMR is wideband and DStar is narrowband.
DStar Data has no match in DMR.
DMR prices blow away DStar.

Best advice is:

1) immediate term: use what's popular in YOUR area.

Long term:

2) watch as there will soon be dualband DMR radios.

3) watch as there will be multiprotocol radios. Too many working on them not to have at least one hit the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Motorola does make a dual band DMR radio, the APX 7000. What you mean is there are no affordable and easy to use dual band DMR radios. An APX 7000 configured to do VHF and UHF is about $2K and that's before you buy the CPS software. But what's another $300 or whatever at that point? ;-)

Having a VFO with DMR doesn't make much sense so I don't see channelization as a downside. The lack of front panel programming on the radios is really the only drawback to me. FWIW I run Vertex VXD-720 VHF and UHF HTs and a VXD-7200 UHF mobile at home. They are solid radios for what they are, which is not a full replacement of a regular analog FM dual band. I still run the FTM-350 in my truck mainly because I also don't want a stack of radios. If DMR is something I want to do I grab an HT.

There is talk of dual band ham-oriented DMR radios, Connect Systems I would expect to be the most likely reliable brand and they are developing what they're calling the CS800D. It's not yet available. They are also developing multiple protocol radios, but again, nothing widely available yet. I would mention that with DMR you have to be very careful to avoid poor quality radios. Some of them (read: your typical Chinese brands) are not super adherent to the DMR protocol and violate time slots. As a result they get booted from repeaters.

I don't think you're likely to ever see a dual band DMR radio that also incorporates an APRS in the background. That's a niche of an already relatively small market. The ID-5100 does D-STAR and and AFAIK do background APRS/DPRS. The FTM-400 can do the same using Fusion instead of D-STAR. There's the Kenwood HT that does D-STAR and APRS and Yaesu HTs that do it with Fusion.

Personally, I would separate one or the other, APRS or digital/DMR. If Connect Systems dual band works out I'll probably do that and build up a APRS radio dedicated to it.

IMHO DMR is the digital protocol that has the best use, but D-STAR has a longer history. We're seeing Fusion come online, but locally I have 2 Fusion repeaters and about a dozen DMR. I think there are D-STAR but I can't say I really pay much attention to it.
 
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. This is pretty much along the lines of my thinking. It is more of a wait and see what happens from this point. If the Connect System Dual Band radios do finally come to market, they might be a good candidate. If and when I do APRS I would use an analog radio. If a dual band multimode D radio came to the market, I would just add it to the stack and use the Icom as an analog and APRS only radio.

3 Radios! I would hope that whoever brings out a dual band multimode radio, that it will have a detachable face panel. The golden egg would be a dual band multi mode D, and analog that can run V/U, V/V. or U/U simultaneously.


Edited to add. I normally do not run APRS mainly just for events, and for letting family know where we are. Also given consideration for vehicle location in case of theft. This hidden within the vehicle and a small 1/2 wave foil strip antenna on window.
https://www.byonics.com/mt-aio
 
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uli2000

Adventurer
Motorola does make a dual band DMR radio, the APX 7000. What you mean is there are no affordable and easy to use dual band DMR radios. An APX 7000 configured to do VHF and UHF is about $2K and that's before you buy the CPS software. But what's another $300 or whatever at that point? ;-)

Yes, the APX series does have dual (and in the case of the APX 8xxx series VHF UHF and 700/800), but they are P25 radios, not DMR. The Motorola DMR radios are the XPR series. There are amateur P25 repeaters, but not nearly as many as DMR.


There is talk of dual band ham-oriented DMR radios, Connect Systems I would expect to be the most likely reliable brand and they are developing what they're calling the CS800D. It's not yet available. They are also developing multiple protocol radios, but again, nothing widely available yet.

Believe it or not, the first dual band DMR radio has been out there for a few months now, made by Baofeng. If you think TYT is poor quality, stay away from the DM-5R. There are a few other dual band DMR HTs from Anytone and TYT that should be out soon as well. The Connect Systems multi protocol radio (the CS7000 not the CS800, those are single band DMR mobile radios)has been "in development" since 2014 now. I doubt we will ever see it come to fruition though.

I don't think you're likely to ever see a dual band DMR radio that also incorporates an APRS in the background. That's a niche of an already relatively small market. The ID-5100 does D-STAR and and AFAIK do background APRS/DPRS. The FTM-400 can do the same using Fusion instead of D-STAR. There's the Kenwood HT that does D-STAR and APRS and Yaesu HTs that do it with Fusion.

Personally, I would separate one or the other, APRS or digital/DMR. If Connect Systems dual band works out I'll probably do that and build up a APRS radio dedicated to it.

IMHO DMR is the digital protocol that has the best use, but D-STAR has a longer history. We're seeing Fusion come online, but locally I have 2 Fusion repeaters and about a dozen DMR. I think there are D-STAR but I can't say I really pay much attention to it.

The 5100 does do DPRS, but not APRS. DPRS is gateway'd thru the D-Star repeater to the internet. It does not use the APRS 1200 baud network. So not only will you not show up on your buddy's APRS radio, if the D-Star repeater you are using doesnt gateway to the internet, you wont show up on APRS.fi either, not all D-Star repeaters will gateway your info as well. You can run an external TNC and do aprs with the 5100 that way though. But APRS is simple enough to set up on its own separate radio. Buy a cheap Motorola Radius or similar VHF radio and something like a TinyTrak or Argent Data tracker. You can have a dedicated APRS setup for ~$100 or less.

Personally, go with what's the most prevelent in your area.
 

uli2000

Adventurer
Thanks for the suggestions guys. This is pretty much along the lines of my thinking. It is more of a wait and see what happens from this point. If the Connect System Dual Band radios do finally come to market, they might be a good candidate. If and when I do APRS I would use an analog radio. If a dual band multimode D radio came to the market, I would just add it to the stack and use the Icom as an analog and APRS only radio.

3 Radios! I would hope that whoever brings out a dual band multimode radio, that it will have a detachable face panel. The golden egg would be a dual band multi mode D, and analog that can run V/U, V/V. or U/U simultaneously.


Edited to add. I normally do not run APRS mainly just for events, and for letting family know where we are. Also given consideration for vehicle location in case of theft. This hidden within the vehicle and a small 1/2 wave foil strip antenna on window.
https://www.byonics.com/mt-aio

There is a multi band multi protocol mobile radio in development, the DV4 Mobile. But dont get your hopes up. It keeps getting pushed back, and due to component sourcing issues, they've stopped taking preorders for it. If it ever comes about, it will be alot of radio, although at an estimated cost of nearly $1000. http://wirelesshold.com/dv4mobile-2.aspx
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Believe it or not, the first dual band DMR radio has been out there for a few months now, made by Baofeng. If you think TYT is poor quality, stay away from the DM-5R. There are a few other dual band DMR HTs from Anytone and TYT that should be out soon as well. The Connect Systems multi protocol radio (the CS7000 not the CS800, those are single band DMR mobile radios)has been "in development" since 2014 now. I doubt we will ever see it come to fruition though.
Updating this thread since I've had a Connect Systems CS800D dual band VHF/UHF for a couple of years now. It works fine, no major issues. Small firmware glitches that get fixed pretty quick but like many things cheap (although I'd suggest moderately priced in this case) Chinese radio the major things (like GPS and roaming) are vaporware so far. The current model (HW version 4 I think) is Part 90 accepted. It's probably best not to use for mission critical stuff but certainly acceptable for the price. It looks to me like Covalue (the OEM in China) used the TM-V71 as "inspiration" since they used the same VHF/UHF power amps, the Mitshubishi RA60H1317 and RA60H4047 and Motorola for the firmware since it shares some similarities to the Moto XPR/Vertex VXD radios in layout and menu.
 
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