Dueling battery question

SameGuy

Observer
I'm getting ready to install a second battery in my Tundra to run my fridge and a few other odds and ends. The battery will be under the bed on a mount I am building out of steel galvanized slotted angle from Home Depot. it certainly won't be the most elegant battery mount around but it will be cheap, easy to build and meet my needs. So on to my question. What size of fuse or better yet, breaker would be appropriate to protect the second battery circuit? I will be using a Blue Sea ML-ACR with the fancy in cab switch to combine and isolate the batteries. I would guess I will nearly never use the switch but it will be nice if my starting battery dies and I need to self jump.

Also so I just read that there is some reason to have the batteries close together when using the blue sea acr. Can anyone explain this? Having them close is not an option in my Tundra.
 

crazysccrmd

Observer
You can also skip wiring the internal switch for the ML-ACR to make it easier. If you want to connect the batteries for winching or a jump start just switch the ML-ACR manually.
 

SameGuy

Observer
Thank you for your replies. Verkstad, you are saying my breaker amp rating should be based on my wire gauge used? I will be using 2 ga welding cable. Ok, I think I get it, I need a fuse/breaker amp rating lower than the amp rating of the wire it protects so if it shorts or draws too much it won't damage the wire. (Light bulb pops on in my head). I do understand that I will want 2 breakers in the run between the positive terminal of the second battery and the acr to protect the run between them.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I do understand that I will want 2 breakers in the run between the positive terminal of the second battery and the acr to protect the run between them.

Not at the ACR - at each power source. So one at each battery.

And the OCPD doesn't have to be a lower amp rating than the wire, it should be the same as the wire. Lower is acceptable (more isn't) but not required, the wire rating already includes a fudge factor for safety.
 

SameGuy

Observer
DWH, I don't understand why I would put an OCPD on the positive lead of my starting battery. There isn't a fuse/breaker there now.
 

crazysccrmd

Observer
DWH, I don't understand why I would put an OCPD on the positive lead of my starting battery. There isn't a fuse/breaker there now.

Mine is setup with a fuse between the primary battery/ML-ACR and secondary battery/ML-ACR. That should prevent an overvoltage from the alternator from reaching the ML-ACR/second battery and any overvoltage problem originating at the second battery from reaching the primary battery.
 

patoz

Expedition Leader
You might want to take a look at what this guy, Matt has to offer. I don't see Tundra listed specifically, but it might be worth giving him a call. He also has a universal Dual Battery kit available which may allow you place the second battery under the hood, along with he OEM one.

His stuff is a little pricey, but he uses top of the line quality parts and does build some very professional looking wiring harnesses.

https://www.offgrid4x4.com/

Matt has a thread on the forum also, but once he got his website going, he hasn't really kept it up to date.

http://forum.expeditionportal.com/t...EERING-Dual-Battery-Systems-(An-Introduction)
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
DWH, I don't understand why I would put an OCPD on the positive lead of my starting battery. There isn't a fuse/breaker there now.

The OCPD is to protect the wire in case of overload. So best practice is to place it as close to the power source as possible.

We're not talking about the existing wiring - alt to batt or batt to starter. We're talking about the new wire to the aux batt. The ACR is just a switch in the middle of that wire.
 

SameGuy

Observer
Thank you all four clearing that up. It makes perfect sense now. Patoz, thanks for the link. I checked out that guys stuff, looks like some really nice work but unfortunately nothing for the Tundra and no way a group 31 is going to fit anywhere under the hood without relocating and re plumbing some major components. My fab skills are somehat lacking as I don't weld or grind but give me a pile of slotted angle and few nuts and bolts and I can build just about anything, basically just a grown up sized erector set.

it looks like the rating on my 2 ga cable is 205 amps so I'll pick up a couple 200 amp breakers and shuld be dialed in.
 
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DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I'm using Matt's dual battery tray in my Taco.

IMG_4430_mid.jpg

Didn't get his kit, I built the rest of the system, but thought this tray was nice and worth the money since it's basically what I would have done anyway. I liked that the hold-down was made for an ML-ACR. Sometimes re-engineering the wheel isn't necessary. This is a pair of group 34/35 PC1400 Odysseys in place of a single group 27 OEM battery. Perhaps this would fit the Tundra?

Used 2 AWG primary wire for the starter, alternator and interconnections. I may rework the short wires between the batteries to use 1 AWG since I'm probably going to use that for the winch. Not that I intend to routinely parallel the batteries for winching, but just have a thing about uniformity. The starter and alternator don't need to be any larger. I'd use 1/0 AWG but it was just too heavy for the short positive leads. Any heavier than 1 or 2 AWG I think will require bending bus bar copper instead. There's only about 3 or 4 inches of cable between the crimps so it's got to be aligned and just the right length.

FWIW the rule of thumb is a battery cable less than 7 inches doesn't need a fuse. This is based on marine ABYC and Coast Guard guidelines, so for automobiles it's more about best practices than anything.

I didn't fuse anything that wasn't fused before from the factory, although I do plan to rework to add a twin fuse holder for the starter and winch when that wiring is done. I flip back and forth between thinking fuses are necessary and not, weighing safety vs. nuisance. Cutting a winch cable is bad but so would having a fuse open mid pull. Not worried on paper, a 300A fuse is going to let the windings in a winch motor melt before opening. I worry about corrosion and aging. Although I'm becoming more comfortable with those MRBF types, they seem to be holding up well. Guess I shouldn't be surprised being designed for saltwater marine use.

Bunch of technical stuff, ignore if you wish.

I prefer to rate 2 AWG for 170 A continuous (based on 30°C temp rise) and for safety I feel even a 300A MRBF is fine, which is rated at 200% for 60 seconds. Using welding cable with EPDM (rubber) insulation with max temperature of 150°C, 2 AWG will just reach 150°C at 616 amps for 60 seconds. A 2 AWG can hold a short circuit current (generally assumed to be 10 seconds) of 1,339 amps and a 300A MRBF will open well below this current, 350% or 1,050 amps, in a maximum of 1 second. None of this assumes any cooling (except for the continuous). Still, I prefer a max of 225A MRBF for 2 AWG to give a margin, so a 200A breaker is probably a good choice. For example, a Cooper 187 series will open at 200% between 10 and 40 seconds, 300% between 5 and 12 seconds.
 
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Ducky's Dad

Explorer
nothing for the Tundra and no way a group 31 is going to fit anywhere under the hood without relocating and re plumbing some major components.
Depends on which Tundra you have. My 2008 CrewMax is running a Northstar Grp 31. It pretty much dropped right in. Still trying to figure out where to put a second battery.
 

patoz

Expedition Leader
Patoz, thanks for the link. I checked out that guys stuff, looks like some really nice work but unfortunately nothing for the Tundra and no way a group 31 is going to fit anywhere under the hood without relocating and re plumbing some major components. My fab skills are somewhat lacking...


I am in a similar situation. I have a 2004 Ford F250 Super Duty PU, with the 6.8 L Triton V10 Engine in it, and I have even less space under the hood than you do. I don't even see a suitable location to mount the ACR, much less a second battery.

Therefore, it looks like my only option is to mount the second battery down on the frame under the passenger's seat or right behind the passenger's seat under the bed. If I mount one there, it needs to be an AGM type, because I won't be able to get to get to it easily for
routine maintenance.

I have a small 120VAC welder and I can stick metal together, but I spend more time grinding the welds afterwards than it takes to build something. :( Also, I'm not sure I would trust my welding for something as critical as a 70 lb. battery, which cost $250.00 - $300.00. So, I'm now looking for a ready made battery box that will fit under there, is easy to mount, and will provide good protection for the battery.
 

SameGuy

Observer
I'm glad someone got the humor in my OP title. I can't tell you how many threads I have read on other forums regarding 'duel' battery setups, lol. Dave, that is a tidy setup, I have looked at those dual battery trays many times. They seem like a great solution for many of us but in my case I need a larger house battery. Well to be honest I don't really think I need one, but I already have one and a decent starting battery so at this juncture, not ready to plop down for 2 new batteries plus the tray, however if I was in that position I would look harder in that direction. Ducksdad, I was talking about mounting a second group 31 under the hood, I don't have a starting battery that big but glad to know one will fit when it is time to replace mine.

Patoz, you might look at building a mount out of slotted angle, there is nothing you can't build out of this stuff with a little ingenuity and simply bolt it in. Check out pintrist or google for inspiration or just head down to your local building center and see what's available, the gears will start turning in your head I'm sure.

2fe0ea9f0b48f697eb138c2c170254f4.jpg images.jpg
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
I'm now looking for a ready made battery box that will fit under there, is easy to mount, and will provide good protection for the battery.
Look on the Summit Racing and Jeg's websites. Lots of prefab boxes for relocating batteries on drag cars. I got a couple from Summit and modified them slightly with some angle iron so that they would hang from the frame rail on my Dodge 2500, under the front passenger seat. I have a pair of Optima Grp 34 Dual purpose Marines under there, and the bottom of the box is still above the bottom of the frame rail, so they are somewhat protected from rocks and impacts. I would have preferred Grp 65 or 31 under there but did not have enough clearance. They are on their sides, tucked up pretty tight against the floor of the cab. You'll still need to weld on the angle iron, but any muffler shop will do that.
 

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