How deep can 4x4 vans get you? Beginner questions...

Flagster

Expedition Leader
We have a 80 series LC and a 4x4 Sprinter...no question which can go "deeper"...
The 4x4 van can do a lot better...1. mileage 2. comfort long distance driving on hwy 3. gear hauling
But getting into tight spaces is tough and ours is the short 144" wb...In the SW it isn't really an issue but if we really want to disappear we still take the LC
 

RobRed

Explorer
I didnt read all the posts here but man what a bunch of curmudgeons on the first page...

Family of 4 - Stock LC with good tires plus off-road trailer goes everywhere. Get a 100 series for better on road comfort and dual AC over the 80 series.
 

Pntyrmvr

Adventurer
I didnt read all the posts here but man what a bunch of curmudgeons on the first page...

Family of 4 - Stock LC with good tires plus off-road trailer goes everywhere. Get a 100 series for better on road comfort and dual AC over the 80 series.

This post asks about 4x4 vans so let's stay on topic.

Here's my curmudgeonly van in 4 low:

3c9e2a8067a2bd5b68265541b6e9fcf2.jpg


33 years old and still going. Forgive the meme. Only photo I have of it swimming.



"Talk is cheap. Whiskey costs money."
 

DzlToy

Explorer
I will take a bit of an opposing view here:

Driver skill, which MOST people do not have when it comes to technical, off road travel, knowing the capabilities and being able to read the trail, etc., is a PART of the equation. Proper vehicle setup is critical for safe travels.

I believe that you should have a vehicle that is MORE capable than what you are going to need. My reasoning is simple:

I can take a 70 year old granny and put her in a Toyota pickup with 100:1 crawl ratio and as long as she can see my hands and do what I (spotter) tell her, she can drive through anything the truck can do. Poor articulation? truck will teeter and tires will spin. Street tread tires? they will spin causing instability and trail damage. You say, " of course that makes sense, but I see people do those things every time I am on the trail. I have seen it from beginners, industry veterans and magazine editors.

Could you get a stock Honda Element with 28" street tires through that same section of trail? Maybe, but I will let you guess which one will be less stressful, easier on the vehicle and MOST importantly, easiest on the trail. The stress level is particularly important if you have a wife or kids who are not comfortable with technical offroading or the family truckster slipping and sliding down the trail.

If you want to take a dirt road with a few chuck holes, to a camp site, then none of this applies. However, the premise of the thread is, "How deep can a 4x4 van get you?" So, I presume the owner (OP), wishes to get quite a ways off the beaten track. Vans are large and heavy, so to get away from it all, you are not going to be driving on smooth, flat, graded dirt rods. A Prius can do that.

For comparison, I will leave you with a few videos. Mind you, they are only comparisons and I am not suggesting that a 4x4 van should be a rock crawler. If you have never driven a well setup off road vehicle, they can be quite impressive, even on "easy" obstacles. Why? the truck isn't working hard at all and a smart driver lets the truck do most of the work. You can be the best driver in the world, but if you have no traction, your truck isn't moving.

First video - "beating on your truck" to make forward progress - irresponsible, stressful and dangerous. Notice how the front end hops over, placing the vehicle in danger of rolling to the side. This is the result of poor driving technique mostly, but another video shows a similar vehicle tackling a very mild obstacle, but due to improper gearing, suspension and tires, the truck bounces up the trail -- not good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lUiuRflCaA&ytbChannel=JohnnyCash14186


Another bad example. Notice how the 4Runner teeters and spits dirt out from the tires. This is not difficult terrain and could easily be encountered on almost any trail, i.e. wash out, ditch, water bar or even a small oblique rock ledge. As soon as one tire comes off the ground or unloads, you are stuck. With proper gearing, articulation, lockers and tires, this is a cake walk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN4aUjsi6wU&ytbChannel=Michael O'grady


Now, contrast that with this diesel Landcruiser in some not so easy terrain. There are no full throttle assaults, no "momentum is your friend", no bouncing to get over rocks because you have 30" street tires and open diffs, etc. Only calm, easy, no damage driving. Can your van or SUV do this for each trail that you want to travel on? If it can't you have the wrong vehicle or are on the wrong trail.


https://youtu.be/ujnzcpUYe7o?t=285


A stock 4WD truck really only has 2WD (open diffs), the suspension travel is not great, nor is it setup to keep the tires on the ground, in an off road environment, which is your goal, no matter the terrain. If you are spinning your tires to get up multiple sections or obstacles, (except for mud), you should not be on that trail or obstacle with that vehicle. When your tires are spinning, you have less control, are more likely to break something and you are damaging the trail.

Here is another example of a fairly capable Iveco EC. Notice the slow speed and proper suspension keeping the tires on the ground (for the most part)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T6NHiLgJcg&ytbChannel=Martin VanMan


Finally, you should be able to ascend and descend any trail that you plan to travel on without stomping on the gas or locking the brakes. If you are on the brakes going down a hill, you do not have enough gearing in your rig. Descending on gearing, improperly called compression braking, when it is actually the result of engine vacuum, allows one to maintain control of steering and traction without the use of brakes, which lock tires and can cause lack of steering and speed control.

This is an excellent example of down hill gearing control and the benefit thereof. You do not have to be a rock crawler to take advantage of this. Which is preferred? teetering, sliding down a hill white knuckled with your foot on the brake or a calm controlled descent?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8m83QssPSI&ytbChannel=4xsteve


I am quite sure to get blasted over this, but I have driven and/or ridden in MANY off road trucks (Mogs, Pinzgauers, Toyotas, rock buggies, Jeeps on 40" tires, XP1000 RZR, Broncos, etc.) Control is your friend off roading and this is especially true in an unknown area, in a large, heavy expo rig (van) with your wife and kids in tow.

$0.03
 
Last edited:

Regcabguy

Oil eater.
Nice Isuzu. Another vehicle the EPA won't let in.
Great illustration of the superior traction with lockers.
 

Wiley

Adventurer
I drove my van to Colombia South America, others have driven the same van further. Mine was AWD, I may go 4X4, but I do not need to. I do not know the trails you listed, but if you can sacrifice rock crawling, a van can get you just about everywhere. The Astro would be small for a family, but I think taking your family rtw in a full size van would beat any rock crawling you may have to give up.
 
Last edited:

derjack

Adventurer
I will take a bit of an opposing view here:

Driver skill, which MOST people do not have when it comes to technical, off road travel, knowing the capabilities and being able to read the trail, etc., is a PART of the equation. Proper vehicle setup is critical for safe travels.

I believe that you should have a vehicle that is MORE capable than what you are going to need. My reasoning is simple:

I can take a 70 year old granny and put her in a Toyota pickup with 100:1 crawl ratio and as long as she can see my hands and do what I (spotter) tell her, she can drive through anything the truck can do. Poor articulation? truck will teeter and tires will spin. Street tread tires? they will spin causing instability and trail damage. You say, " of course that makes sense, but I see people do those things every time I am on the trail. I have seen it from beginners, industry veterans and magazine editors.

Could you get a stock Honda Element with 28" street tires through that same section of trail? Maybe, but I will let you guess which one will be less stressful, easier on the vehicle and MOST importantly, easiest on the trail. The stress level is particularly important if you have a wife or kids who are not comfortable with technical offroading or the family truckster slipping and sliding down the trail.

If you want to take a dirt road with a few chuck holes, to a camp site, then none of this applies. However, the premise of the thread is, "How deep can a 4x4 van get you?" So, I presume the owner (OP), wishes to get quite a ways off the beaten track. Vans are large and heavy, so to get away from it all, you are not going to be driving on smooth, flat, graded dirt rods. A Prius can do that.

For comparison, I will leave you with a few videos. Mind you, they are only comparisons and I am not suggesting that a 4x4 van should be a rock crawler. If you have never driven a well setup off road vehicle, they can be quite impressive, even on "easy" obstacles. Why? the truck isn't working hard at all and a smart driver lets the truck do most of the work. You can be the best driver in the world, but if you have no traction, your truck isn't moving.

First video - "beating on your truck" to make forward progress - irresponsible, stressful and dangerous. Notice how the front end hops over, placing the vehicle in danger of rolling to the side. This is the result of poor driving technique mostly, but another video shows a similar vehicle tackling a very mild obstacle, but due to improper gearing, suspension and tires, the truck bounces up the trail -- not good.




Another bad example. Notice how the 4Runner teeters and spits dirt out from the tires. This is not difficult terrain and could easily be encountered on almost any trail, i.e. wash out, ditch, water bar or even a small oblique rock ledge. As soon as one tire comes off the ground or unloads, you are stuck. With proper gearing, articulation, lockers and tires, this is a cake walk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN4aUjsi6wU&ytbChannel=Michael O'grady


Now, contrast that with this diesel Landcruiser in some not so easy terrain. There are no full throttle assaults, no "momentum is your friend", no bouncing to get over rocks because you have 30" street tires and open diffs, etc. Only calm, easy, no damage driving. Can your van or SUV do this for each trail that you want to travel on? If it can't you have the wrong vehicle or are on the wrong trail.




A stock 4WD truck really only has 2WD (open diffs), the suspension travel is not great, nor is it setup to keep the tires on the ground, in an off road environment, which is your goal, no matter the terrain. If you are spinning your tires to get up multiple sections or obstacles, (except for mud), you should not be on that trail or obstacle with that vehicle. When your tires are spinning, you have less control, are more likely to break something and you are damaging the trail.

Here is another example of a fairly capable Iveco EC. Notice the slow speed and proper suspension keeping the tires on the ground (for the most part)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T6NHiLgJcg&ytbChannel=Martin VanMan


Finally, you should be able to ascend and descend any trail that you plan to travel on without stomping on the gas or locking the brakes. If you are on the brakes going down a hill, you do not have enough gearing in your rig. Descending on gearing, improperly called compression braking, when it is actually the result of engine vacuum, allows one to maintain control of steering and traction without the use of brakes, which lock tires and can cause lack of steering and speed control.

This is an excellent example of down hill gearing control and the benefit thereof. You do not have to be a rock crawler to take advantage of this. Which is preferred? teetering, sliding down a hill white knuckled with your foot on the brake or a calm controlled descent?




I am quite sure to get blasted over this, but I have driven and/or ridden in MANY off road trucks (Mogs, Pinzgauers, Toyotas, rock buggies, Jeeps on 40" tires, XP1000 RZR, Broncos, etc.) Control is your friend off roading and this is especially true in an unknown area, in a large, heavy expo rig (van) with your wife and kids in tow.

$0.03
Thanks for this summary - very nicely done!

I doubt that more than 1% of SM drivers will reach those destinations - or want to try that! I have in mind those people who have ordered a nice one with a microwave and a senseo coffee machine and after lunch driving that??? ;-)

For most people money is an argument. IF so you can think of lockers rear and big MTs an getting the air out when it get´s tough. This can bring you far further than most people think!

btw Econolines are not made to withstand twisting very good. I had mine on a stand and could hardly open the rear doors. When I image the SM interior build (which is also NOT made for offroad) - I would skip those "roads" IF I had a SM.

my 2ct
 

TomsBeast

Member
There's another way to slice this: Two vehicles. 2wd camper or motorhome (w/heater, room to spare for the family), and towbar a licensed and capable 4x4 rig, small enough to do the Rubicon, etc, but big enough for the family (Jeep Cherokee, Toyota 4runner, etc)

Yet another way, is to give up on the more serious offroad trails, at least in weather, and get a van (we all know your really want a van, anyhow ;-) ) As your kids get older, things will be tight inside a van, so get them a tent.
 
Old off-road proverb: four wheel drive just gets you more stuck.

I have heard this saying many a time, however in my experience there have been very moderate situations that REQUIRED 4WD.

On our last trip we were on some back roads south of Green River Utah up on some plateau's / mesa's and when it started raining it turned the well maintained dirt/gravel roads into slop. The layer of mud was like peanut butter. I tried to ride it out in 2wd, but found ourselves sideways in the middle of the road and the whole van was creeping off the road due to the slight off camber (While we wee STOPPED!). I Jumped out, locked the hubs and before we slid all the way into the ditch we were in 4WD and on our way. Coming DOWN the mesa was a white knuckled experience. I've never been in mud that slippery in my life.

I do not think 4wd gets you in trouble if you are reasonable. It certainly saved us on this last trip... and many times before.

My 2 cents!

Here is AFTER we made it down off the mesa.... the photo of that innocent looking road was slick as peanut butter in the worst places!
 

Attachments

  • DSC_5669.JPG
    DSC_5669.JPG
    1.6 MB · Views: 120
  • DSC_5674.JPG
    DSC_5674.JPG
    2 MB · Views: 119
  • StormRoad.jpg
    StormRoad.jpg
    868.2 KB · Views: 111
Last edited:

b. rock

Active member
I agree with bringing enough rig for the trail, however, this is awesome:

A 4wd van can do a LOT in skillful hands.

Van on Hole in the Rock trail

Having run the trail more than once prior to seeing it first hand I would of considered Hole in the rock NOT van friendly at all. Many times its the archer and not the arrow.

I had been eyeballing that trail in my 80 series but heard it was pretty gnarly, so putting together a group willing to go has been tough.
 

LandCruiserPhil

Expedition Leader
I agree with bringing enough rig for the trail, however, this is awesome:



I had been eyeballing that trail in my 80 series but heard it was pretty gnarly, so putting together a group willing to go has been tough.

Done it a couple times perfect for an 80 but yes it does have a lot of exposure and you want a driver with experience.

 

b. rock

Active member
I wasn't too worried about myself, it was more finding 2-3 other people that could a) get to that part of UT and b) were comfortable running the trail that proved to be a challenge.

To see a van on it is awesome however. I would think a 138" wheelbase would really make some things challenging.
 

LandCruiserPhil

Expedition Leader
I wasn't too worried about myself, it was more finding 2-3 other people that could a) get to that part of UT and b) were comfortable running the trail that proved to be a challenge.

To see a van on it is awesome however. I would think a 138" wheelbase would really make some things challenging.

Hit me up Ill do it again Im 7 hours from the trail head.

Anyone that does HITR will be a better driver by the end of the trail.

It takes a very confident driver and one that is not concerned with damage to think about it in a van.
 

b. rock

Active member
My 80 sold 3 days ago, it was a very sad day but life marches on. I'm condensing it and my camper van into a single 4x4 longer distance + cold weather platform, but I have no intention of running trails in the 6-7 rating in the van (which this seems to be, judging by the video). However the odds of ending up with a 40, Sami, or TJ, as a pull behind at some point are pretty high.

Aside from Rose Garden which can be bypassed anyway, I'm fairly confident I could run Kokopelli in a van though.
 

Gunslinger1

Observer
A good selectable locker in the rear of a van which already has weight on the rear axel makes for great traction , also the little jeep wrangler in tow adds to the fun from base camp. Just a thought.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
185,530
Messages
2,875,577
Members
224,922
Latest member
Randy Towles
Top