Brake issues

Amesz00

Adventurer
Anyone had issues with their brakes not working properly? Especially those with bigger tyres..
Or found any ways of improving their effectiveness?
Those running 37s, will the brakes lock up on the road?

Brakes on my truck seem particularly crap. I know I'm running quite big tyres, but they seem disproportionately bad.. they barely lock on the dirt, when fully adjusted and bled.

My dad always ran 255 XZLs, which are close to 37, and I'm sure I remember him locking it up on the road a few times..

Lastly effectiveness in reverse, for example when on a steep hill. Mine do nothing, even on a very moderate slope, I have to go for the handbrake to stop it rolling. Which as I discovered 1/2 way up an extremely steep loose hill last night, does not always work..
 

blackduck

Explorer
Mines about to go in for a check up
pulls to the left like buggery under severe braking
its a shoe issue
Its alot like the wife. its not happy unless it has new shoes :wings:
got a feeling the last clown to adjust it didnt comprehend twin cylinder adjustment and pulled it up on one slave cylinder only
so considering the labor involved ill just get them replaced

$1000 plus dollars - thank you very much
 

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
I really don't use my brakes very much - I try to use the exhaust brake as much as possible.

Last year I pulled everything apart and bled through all new fluid. Took a couple of tries to get the ABS to bleed right but I definitely notice a difference.
 

gait

Explorer
I stopped being embarrassed about my FG649 drum brakes a long time ago.

They are rubbish. How they ever passed a brake test for the 285/70-19.5 tyres I can only put down to the test being not very exacting. A large part of the brake test seems to be how many times the pedal can be pressed before the vacuum is no longer. I'm sure there's g-forces involved somewhere.

Its a lottery as to which way they pull. I've found that they tend to pull less if I back them off more than I think normal while adjusting. A bit more pedal travel but a lot more confidence that something useful will actually happen. A bit counter intuitive but I can live with that.

I do check the brakes within the first 100m or so each morning as they seem to need "waking up". They grab a bit in that first use.

I've only once locked them up and that was on what felt like a bed of marbles. Perhaps an exageration (would I do that?), certainly a gravel road with some pebbles. I locked them to see if I could. Forewarned is forearmed as they say.

I've adjusted my driving habits to the point the brakes are really only used for the last bit of coming to a dead stop. The exhaust retarder is worth its weight (in gold). I discovered the desirability of looking as far ahead as I could and planning my path a long time ago. Old Jag at more than 160 km/h, so I drive with similar stopping distances in mind in truck at 80 km/h. If I can't see round the corner on a one track road I take it slow. Seems to work.

I suspect I'm older than "Amesz" and the roses smell nicer. Its a bit of a paradox that the less time I have left on earth the slower I travel.

The gradients out of Bendethera (NSW) are as steep as I've driven. Steeper than 15 degrees (limit of my ride on mower). Used to be considered at the limit for land rovers in '60s. Haflingers apparently needed someone riding on the front (I know one of the former counter weights).

Fortunately short sections to each transverse drain on the fire trails. I attempt to select the gear which will get me to the top without the need to change. Fairly conservatively. Unfortunately I lost my concentration and was in a gear too high. Inevitable stop, as the consequences of missing a gear would be worse. Very scary moment as I discovered the footbrake didn't hold. Just to be clear, that's the gut wrenching pain of an ancient decrepit knee trying to force the brake pedal through the floor while the wheels rotate majestically backwards. Not a hint of locking. Fortunately only about 30m straight back to the previous drain. But who knows what speed I would be doing when I got there. Grab for the handbrake anyway. Phew, that worked, now what? Not quite life flashing before eyes, but those few, slow motion, milliseconds to realise what's happening and influence the outcome for the better. A sort of "oh ******t" moment.

The handbrake worked. Low range first gear for a precarious, delicate, hill start and a very slow crawl to the next drain. Stop for drink of water .... a dry mouth seems to be an inevitable consequence of making mistakes.

Its only happened once but I don't plan on letting it happen again. Touch wood. Though at least I'll know what to expect before stopping. And I seem to always have planned the escape. Much the same as climbing (on foot) up snow slopes ... much easier if there's a good run out rather than rocks or a precipice.

Part of what helped the rapid diagnosis was previous experience with ride on mower. Short story ... imagine careering backwards down damp grassy slope with one rear wheel rotating forwards and the other backwards. Another "time stands still" moment. Fortunately good runout and enough gumption to just let it run (no braking, no accelerating) with a "how to jump off a moving about to roll ride on lawnmower" contingency plan.

I do hope the Canter diffs can't get crossed like that .......

But back to brakes. What more can I say?

Ah. I know. The leading shoe in a drum brake has a self servo effect. With forward rotation. The rear drums have single leading shoe, single trailing shoe. The front drums have twin leading shoes. Surprise .... they work better forwards than backwards.

And really oh truly oh last bit oh. I have parabolics. I replaced the worn out tired Monroe shocks with shiny new Konis. Softer bump, harsher rebound. That seems to allow me higher tire pressures while retaining comfort. Side effect is the vehicle "feels" more stable at highway speed, which in turn effects extreme braking (if anything with drums can be called extreme).
 
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pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
I've experienced a few failed hill climbs - a few in a Defender and one in the Fuso. They are all pretty scary - I had a fairly uncontrolled descent with the Fuso but did keep it upright. The only vehicle I've ever rolled was a Defender with a cage, so guess I've been lucky.
 

unkamonkey

Explorer
If your Mitsu is as old as mine, dual anchor brakes are a mystery. I learned in my old MB Jeep. There is a correct procedure for them. I was driving through town a few years ago and I locked up all of my brakes at an intersection with my Jeep pushing me through the wet intersection. At least nobody pulled out in front of me when the light changed. Yeah, the exhaust brake is a piece of gold. I rarely use my brakes on a highway. I think some people don't think I have brake lights until I use them for the last few feet at a stop light.
 

Aussie Iron

Explorer
Just for some information I believe I read somewhere that the 2WD canters had a larger size diameter brake booster. This would give you more brake pressure at the same peddle pressure and apparently having the same brakes. I think it was written in "Alans" Canter thread.

Dan.
 

Amesz00

Adventurer
Yea the exhaust brake in the 4.9 is a godsend.. I don't think it would be driveable without it.. likewise, I use it to slow to about 40km, then brake the last few m.
It's also awesome in steep county.

The experience I had other night was very similar to gait's, was down in the sometimes unbelievablely steep Harvey hills in SW WA.
I was already in 1st low, climbing what I now think was a newly made logging track for those 8x8 articulated machines... was probly up around 35deg, and just loose bulldust.
Got almost to the top of this section, didn't have the elocker in coz it didn't t look too uneven at all. It stopped, I went for the handbrake and the footbrakes, and that held. Locker in, went to go again, hopped a couple times then stalled out. Should've left clutch engaged, but I didn't. Somewhere round then with brakes and h/brake on it started moving backwards, once it started it just kept going. Likewise, no hint of locking, with pedal to the floor and handbrake reefed all the way up.

Pitch black, no idea where I'm going except that my mates somewhere behind. Not sure whether to keep straight to mitigate rollover or try spear it into bush to hit a tree. Ended up on the last drainage mound bout 40m back, back wheels just on the edge. Thankfully there was enough room there to turn round and head back down. Bloody terrifying though.
Since then the handbrake doesn't seem to work properly either, even after adjusting the cable and shoes out.

I do remember Alan saying about the bigger booster, that will be my first port of call, as well as trying to find some better grippier shoes.

Would be good to do a disc conversion on the front...
 
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whatcharterboat

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Hi Andrew

Mate I have a FE84 booster in the shed somewhere. I was pretty sure it was identical to the FG84....externally anyway. Maybe they were different in the older models....not sure. I might even try to grab some pics. In the bush in Tassie at the moment.
 

Amesz00

Adventurer
Hi Andrew

Mate I have a FE84 booster in the shed somewhere. I was pretty sure it was identical to the FG84....externally anyway. Maybe they were different in the older models....not sure. I might even try to grab some pics. In the bush in Tassie at the moment.

How about the heavier FE85s?

Also does anyone know anything about the 'hill start assist' system on the 84s? It seems to lock the service brakes on, once the vehicle is stopped. Will it apply more brake pressure/force than can be put through the pedal?
 

Aussie Iron

Explorer
The experience I had other night was very similar to gait's, was down in the sometimes unbelievablely steep Harvey hills in SW WA.
I was already in 1st low, climbing what I now think was a newly made logging track for those 8x8 articulated machines... was probly up around 35deg, and just loose bulldust.
Got almost to the top of this section, didn't have the elocker in coz it didn't t look too uneven at all. It stopped, I went for the handbrake and the footbrakes, and that held. Locker in, went to go again, hopped a couple times then stalled out. Should've left clutch engaged, but I didn't. Somewhere round then with brakes and h/brake on it started moving backwards, once it started it just kept going. Likewise, no hint of locking, with pedal to the floor and handbrake reefed all the way up.

You would think that in the bulldust the brakes would just have locked up and then slide on the dust. I now need to do some testing on my brakes as I thought they worked quite well in that situation on hills.
I did look at different boosters a while back and at the time there was a mob that built custom boosters to your needs.

Dan.
 

Amesz00

Adventurer
Admittedly mine need bleeding, so were probably not quite putting out full pressure. But I have had this problem before, bleeding and proper adjustment helps, but not a lot.
I think it has mostly to do with the self-energising effect drums have; they pull themselves on harder going forwards, but not in reverse. TBH, mine right now, won't even lock going forward downhill on gravel- I tried..
 

gait

Explorer
......Bloody terrifying though.

I can relate to that Andrew .... I was in daylight, and it stopped on the handbrake - its the mental image of what could happen ..... :)

Since then the handbrake doesn't seem to work properly either, even after adjusting the cable and shoes out.

I do remember Alan saying about the bigger booster, that will be my first port of call, as well as trying to find some better grippier shoes.

Would be good to do a disc conversion on the front...

handbrake probably not intended to allow rotation, shoes may be "glazed".

if you find a grippier shoe material for the drums can you post please?

front discs would be neat ....... I have a vague recollection of ADRs and brake swept area that gave us drums but can't find reference. Where there's a will there's a way.
 

jhrodd

Adventurer
When I got my FG half of the wheel cylinders were frozen and contributing nothing to the braking. After replacing the cylinders, shoes, and drums the brakes are wonderful. You should confirm that your brakes are actually working properly before trying to upgrade them.
 

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