elcoyote
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0004
You may not have as much on your truck as I do i.e. ARB bumper, 16.5 winch, 42G aux tank, 5 x 37" tires, sliders, under bed and behind cab storage boxes etc
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XPCamper and GVWR
- Thread starter awisernig
- Start date
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Paul Davenport
Observer
Indeed. The Northstar camper with water weigh 1750# minimum (excluding options, food, clothing, gear etc.). Adult refreshments alone would put me well over 1800 (which aren't optional).
AbleGuy
Officious Intermeddler
Just so you know, I'm not referring to XP or any other brand of camper here.
But, I hate to tell, you, ....For all of you proud overweight camper owners.....you'd better hope you never get into a serious accident with them, because if so, when the overweight issue of your rig is made known, the injured party's attorney will positively eat your lunch, and plus there's a damn good chance that your own insurance company will probably deny you any liability coverage for your willful violation of your weight limits.
At that point you're screwed.
A good rule to consider: Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
And liability wise, I strongly disagree with those who say manufacturers' GVWR ratings are less important than what your upgraded axle or suspension can hold. Let a good lawyer argue to a jury that your safe braking capacity as set by the truck's manufacturer was voluntary ignored by your built and camper load, and that that contributed to causing the accident.....and ka ching ka ching ka ching!
(From a former insurance defense industry counsel)
But, I hate to tell, you, ....For all of you proud overweight camper owners.....you'd better hope you never get into a serious accident with them, because if so, when the overweight issue of your rig is made known, the injured party's attorney will positively eat your lunch, and plus there's a damn good chance that your own insurance company will probably deny you any liability coverage for your willful violation of your weight limits.
At that point you're screwed.
A good rule to consider: Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
And liability wise, I strongly disagree with those who say manufacturers' GVWR ratings are less important than what your upgraded axle or suspension can hold. Let a good lawyer argue to a jury that your safe braking capacity as set by the truck's manufacturer was voluntary ignored by your built and camper load, and that that contributed to causing the accident.....and ka ching ka ching ka ching!
(From a former insurance defense industry counsel)
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DVexile
Adventurer
This is commonly stated on forums and when challenged no one has ever produced any record of anyone having liability denied from being in an accident over weight. On the contrary in the one example of a law suit involving a private vehicle overweight often referenced (a CA case) the insurance company *did* pay out. Consider that insurance pays out in DUI cases after all. Now they may cancel your coverage after the accident but they will pay out. Worth noting in the CA case over weight wasn't GVWR but rather way over GCWR (towing) by multiple thousands of pounds and speeding more than 20 mph over the limit.
Indeed. Even more so for towing.
Good argument for towing, poor argument for over GVWR since going over GVWR has a very small impact on braking distance and in very few vehicles is GVWR at all limited by braking distance - most vehicles used for campers brake well short of the federal safety requirements. Now towing an unbraked load does directly impact braking distance in a almost linear fashion and yet again for most camping vehicles the manufacturer specifies that it is "safe" to tow at least 1000 lbs unbraked. So your proposed argument holds no water in court. Federal regulations already define a "safe" braking distance and even a mid-size overloaded by 1000 lbs will still easily meet that standard. Further the manufacture also already recommends these vehicles can safely brake a towed unbraked load of at least 1000 lbs - a condition that has far greater impact on braking distance than weight on the vehicle itself.
Last consider I've yet to find a single state that actually has any law regarding going over the *manufacturer's* GVWR. Rather they regulate going over your *registered* GVWR. Furthermore they let you register for anything you want *over* your manufacturer GVWR but typically not *under*. Why? Because they don't want people dodging fees meant to pay for roads and GAWR (related to GVWR naturally) has a strong effect (fourth power scaling) on road wear. But they could care less whether you drive over the manufacturer GVWR just as long as you've registered enough GVWR and aren't over your registered GVWR.
You can also call your insurance company and ask about this ahead of time. I and others have and the answer from multiple insurers has been that they don't care if you are over GVWR and that being so will not affect your coverage. Interested parties might want to call their company and record the answer given.
Now remove GVWR from the argument and just argue the vehicle was unsafely loaded and now there is a good case. This is actually how the law is written in most states as well - the officer can cite you for unsafely loaded vehicle, and said laws make no mention at all of GVWR. Rather it is up to the discretion of the officer to decide if a vehicle is unsafe. They can cite you even being under GVWR if they want (e.g. vehicle appears too top heavy).
Anyway - sorry to nitpick because fundamentally I agree with your advice. Don't overload the dang vehicle. Consider your safety and the safety of others around you. But the reality is the manufacturers GVWR itself doesn't really play any role in liability that I've ever been able to find in any case. That said it sounds like you've got the right kind of experience to find one and if you can find one I'd be super appreciative because I'd love to have a concrete example of a liability case tied to a private vehicle that was over GVWR.
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DVexile
Adventurer
In Tacoma land I've now seen more than one case of vehicles with way overloaded front ends (plate bumper, winches, armor, larger battery) that have broken a spindle in the wilderness. Extra irony is both vehicles also had "gusseted" their factory spindles likely making them weaker rather than stronger because of improper heat treating and compromising the factory heat treating.
In British Columbia you get a fine if your truck is over GVWR http://www.cvse.ca/references_publications/pdf/MV3231(082003)GVWR.pdf . I have been asked by BC police to drive over a scale with my half ton truck with a Hawk. I have quite a few friends who had the same experience. Fortunately I was not over GVWR.
Stefan
Stefan
java
Expedition Leader
I'm betting the truck still weighs more than you think..... All the little things add up, each wheel is 20-30lbs more than stock, bumper is 200lbs, etc. Same with the camper, its probably just a bit more than the "stated" weight.
I'm at 14,240lbs, with all my stuff, 2 dogs, 3 people and half water and gas. Under GVWR, and GAWR's (I got a big truck on purpose...) but still heavy.
I'm at 14,240lbs, with all my stuff, 2 dogs, 3 people and half water and gas. Under GVWR, and GAWR's (I got a big truck on purpose...) but still heavy.
AbleGuy
Officious Intermeddler
"In British Columbia you get a fine if your truck is over GVWR http://www.cvse.ca/references_publications/pdf/MV3231(082003)GVWR.pdf . I have been asked by BC police to drive over a scale with my half ton truck with a Hawk."
I've heard of this happening in California too.
BTW, in my earlier post above, my reference to being over weight is in regards to the posted GVWR on the door sticker of your truck.
And as to the "no reported liability cases" arguments, remember that only appeals court cases are published.
At any rate, as another poster said "No need to take my word for it. Just read your auto own insurance policy. Does it say they can deny coverage for "negligence", does it say they can deny coverage for "gross negligence", does it say they can deny coverage for being overweight? The exclusions are all right there in the policy. Everyone can read them and determine for themselves."
I've heard of this happening in California too.
BTW, in my earlier post above, my reference to being over weight is in regards to the posted GVWR on the door sticker of your truck.
And as to the "no reported liability cases" arguments, remember that only appeals court cases are published.
At any rate, as another poster said "No need to take my word for it. Just read your auto own insurance policy. Does it say they can deny coverage for "negligence", does it say they can deny coverage for "gross negligence", does it say they can deny coverage for being overweight? The exclusions are all right there in the policy. Everyone can read them and determine for themselves."
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AbleGuy
Officious Intermeddler
This overweight topic has been well covered on many other RV forums.
Some good points brought up there:
--there may be some difference liability wise for an owner being ignorant of being overweight versus one who weighed his rig and actually knew of the dangers,
--most states have comparative or contributory negligence rules for civil cases and being overweight is going to hurt you there,
--worst place to try to explain why you voluntarily ignored safety ratings in on a witness stand.
As one poster said, "How will it sound when you have to explain yourself in court or on an accident report. Will it sound better to say I had taken every precaution or that i cut a few corners."
That's it for me, I've said my piece.
Some good points brought up there:
--there may be some difference liability wise for an owner being ignorant of being overweight versus one who weighed his rig and actually knew of the dangers,
--most states have comparative or contributory negligence rules for civil cases and being overweight is going to hurt you there,
--worst place to try to explain why you voluntarily ignored safety ratings in on a witness stand.
As one poster said, "How will it sound when you have to explain yourself in court or on an accident report. Will it sound better to say I had taken every precaution or that i cut a few corners."
That's it for me, I've said my piece.
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Thanks for everyone's thoughts on the legality/liability aspect of it. While on that topic, in the unlikely event of an accident/lawsuit/other legal issue could the manufacturer of the truck camper be liable? If the stated weight of the camper (stamped on the camper) is significantly less than its actual weight (especially if its dry). At the end of the day, as a consumer purchasing a camper, in most cases, you only have access to the information provided to you.
If a certain camper is targeted toward a specific vehicle/class of vehicles, and then a manufacturer installs (or significantly under-states the weight) the camper on a truck, knowing it'll be overloaded, am I still the only one liable?
I'm mentioning XPCamper solely because it's the only one I have experience with but if a customer asks a manufacturer if camper is compatible with a certain vehicle and they agree (when in reality it far exceeds the payload capacity), aren't they partly responsible?
If a certain camper is targeted toward a specific vehicle/class of vehicles, and then a manufacturer installs (or significantly under-states the weight) the camper on a truck, knowing it'll be overloaded, am I still the only one liable?
I'm mentioning XPCamper solely because it's the only one I have experience with but if a customer asks a manufacturer if camper is compatible with a certain vehicle and they agree (when in reality it far exceeds the payload capacity), aren't they partly responsible?
tacomabill
Active member
I am only 330 pounds over GVWR. New FWC Fleet shell with battery box, ceiling fan and lift struts. I weighed everything myself. 2008 tacoma: 4330[with me in it]. camper:900. Rig loaded with water, food, ice and all gear: 5560.
montypower
Adventure Time!
If safety is the primary concern then modify it to carry the weight.
I challenge anyone with a F250/350/550 or other heavy duty vehicle to a competition with a properly modified Tundra carrying the same load. I'll bet the braking distance, acceleration, cornering, maneuvering etc... would be better with the Tundra. Consider box trucks and their ability to corner, accelerate or brake - yet they are road legal. I've owned around 60 vehicles. Many stock do not perform as well as the Tundra with a camper. Now, it does have properly built springs for load (no air bags), sway bars, Icon 2.5" Resi shocks, 2.5" Coilovers, Timbrens, load E tires. Weight is down low as possible. It in no way feels unsafe. My buddy in his Sportsmobile type van couldn't keep up with it in Mexico. High speed back roads are a blast! I would only haul a popup style camper on a smaller truck. They just drive better. Sure, if you get a 4,000lb behemoth then get some ridiculous F550. Or carry less crap and travel simple.
That being said I drive very conservatively on road. Keep 60-65mph. Lots of distance. Not had any even remotely concerning situations even driving in heavy snow fall. Camper has over 25k miles on the truck in 9 months. So I do have some experience. Will report back when it goes over 100k.
Bottom line anything can be safe or unsafe depending on how it's driven and modified. I'm amazed at older trucks that have worn out suspension still carrying heavy loads. Think it can perform an emergency maneuver? If you carry a heavy load then build the truck to accommodate. The sticker means nothing when it comes to going around a corner or stopping. For your own sake and others be smart.
I challenge anyone with a F250/350/550 or other heavy duty vehicle to a competition with a properly modified Tundra carrying the same load. I'll bet the braking distance, acceleration, cornering, maneuvering etc... would be better with the Tundra. Consider box trucks and their ability to corner, accelerate or brake - yet they are road legal. I've owned around 60 vehicles. Many stock do not perform as well as the Tundra with a camper. Now, it does have properly built springs for load (no air bags), sway bars, Icon 2.5" Resi shocks, 2.5" Coilovers, Timbrens, load E tires. Weight is down low as possible. It in no way feels unsafe. My buddy in his Sportsmobile type van couldn't keep up with it in Mexico. High speed back roads are a blast! I would only haul a popup style camper on a smaller truck. They just drive better. Sure, if you get a 4,000lb behemoth then get some ridiculous F550. Or carry less crap and travel simple.
That being said I drive very conservatively on road. Keep 60-65mph. Lots of distance. Not had any even remotely concerning situations even driving in heavy snow fall. Camper has over 25k miles on the truck in 9 months. So I do have some experience. Will report back when it goes over 100k.
Bottom line anything can be safe or unsafe depending on how it's driven and modified. I'm amazed at older trucks that have worn out suspension still carrying heavy loads. Think it can perform an emergency maneuver? If you carry a heavy load then build the truck to accommodate. The sticker means nothing when it comes to going around a corner or stopping. For your own sake and others be smart.
montypower
Adventure Time!
Simple way to avoid all that... don't have your vehicle look overloaded! Why do people over complicate things?
Even in the attached PDF it states that the officer takes visual cues. Basically, if it looks unsafe they many flag you regardless of actual GVWR. So make it safe and no issues regardless if you are above or below sticker.
DVexile
Adventurer
Thanks for the reference! Glad to have one place to point to that calls out GVWR specifically for citation. Most states in the US I've checked just have a general "unsafely loaded" law that doesn't mention GVWR and then laws for being over your registered weight.
In CA the cases I've heard have been for people being taken to the scales to cite them for being over registered weight - i.e. the citation is not for safety but rather for not pay adequate fees for the amount of road wear you are potentially causing. Now the CVC does have a general "unsafely loaded" law in it where the officer can declare you unsafe for any sort of common sense thing. It is broad enough the officer could certainly consider over GVWR as "unsafe" but nothing in the law says that. Besides the CVC there are also documents the CHP produces to guide their officers in enforcement of the CVC and it is possible some such document does mention GVWR though I have no idea myself.
Thanks for the clarification - didn't know that. Probably why it is so hard to find much of anything.
Exactly.
In the few cases I've heard about this is how weight comes up - not on its own but as one of a few contributing factors.
As I said it is nearly impossible to actually stay below GVWR with a FWC on a Tacoma. But you can certainly stay reasonably close. Being thoughtful about what you are putting on the truck as you appear to be is the right thing to do in my opinion if going with a FWC on a Tacoma. Certainly from a safety perspective a few hundred over is having a very small impact compared to some rigs that are more than a thousand over.
It's been a fight on my rig but I've managed to keep my Tacoma+Flip-Pac under GVWR. Aluminum skids, removed the receiver hitch, rear aluminum bumper. I expect if I have the whole family, full water/fuel cans, full cooler and a bunch of luggage we probably do creep over in that condition.