Let's Talk Power Planning

vartz04

Adventurer
Verkstad, noted and I'm taking an additional charger, maybe two. One real charger and a trickle thingy. Which reminds me, I need to fire up my motorcycles!

Tom, I may only have 5 or so years left to travel and camp, it's an age thing. In 10 years I may not be able to pull a starter on a genny, much less lift it.......that's why I'm not sinking $$$$ into this project, there is little pay back for me.

Now, it's good to mention the higher budget route, with a Honda, others who have longer to enjoy the adventure should consider the upscale version.

I don't really suggest going the cheap route, but my pay back time is limited and I know there are many newbie young members starting out that are on a limited budget, so if it is reliable (somewhat) and inexpensive all the better.

Two gennys I'm considering now are the Champion and the Winn, but others can still be in the race.

Now, what about all the gizzmos that are needed to make all this work? Suggestions or what are you using? :)

Consider the resale then if you only think you have 5 years. That honda you can probably sell for $700 in 5 years if it has low hours. The solar stuff I would go cheap. you likely can't resell that for anything close to what you bought it for.
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Vartz, that's 5, 7 years of camping travels, I hope I have longer than that. I've considered that, if and when I sell, it will probably be the whole shabang, van, trailer, equipment and gear in a ready to go package, not piece meal parted out. With the Honda, I'd lose $300, that buys a smaller Power Boss, Win or Champion, all good for what is needed.

Hopefully, we'll put on about 300+ hours a year on this set up.

I looked at my little window shaker, it said 120V, 5,000 btu 4.2 amp, 515 watts, a 3 ear old Frigidaire. That doesn't seem very power hungry to me.

The micro pulls 10 amps, guess both can run on one 20 amp line :)

Sounds like a 1200/1400 watt inverter would work in a pinch too.

Any ideas on a Gen box? All the units I'm looking at run at 68db, only 6 db louder than the Honda, the goal is to protect the electrical and get the noise down to a quiet roar.

I might find a use for a non-working top loading freezer, 27 inches square, 25 inches high without the lower guts, but it might make a good ice box too..... :beer:

On the launch pad is an old Coleman cooler, seems it would make a good battery box for a separate 12V battery (trolling motor type), it has room for a V meter and fuses, I'd put a locking hasp on it and vent it for grins. :)

Hey guys, are the new Briggs and Straton engines as good as the old reputation, are they still bullet proof? I'm leaning toward the Power Boss 2000 watt.
 
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Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Summation, The Honda 2000i runs at 53 to 59 db, has indicator lights and 2 outlets and costs $999.00+ weighs 49 pounds, inverter at 2000 watts. It runs at 8.1 hours on a tank full. As advertised. 5 star ratings.

In this (my) case, pure sine wave isn't needed, my sensitive electronics can run off 12V, so in this case we only need to charge batteries with a generator. Almost any small generator can do that.

The Wen 1800 runs 7.5 hours on a tank full, at 63 db, doesn't have the idiot light indicator, holding its own at 4.5 and 5 star ratings depending on the site review. The Wen is heavier at 51 pounds. The Wen is in a steel frame and the Honda at 49 pounds is in a plastic type case. Surviving a 3' fall, my money would be on the Wen with the steel frame.

Both have warranties and support, Honda 3 years, Wen 2 years and either may be extended for an additional charge. I usually don't buy extended warranties but might for the Wen.

Looks like the most significant differences would be that the Honda is quieter at 53 db and fuel economy at half load on a third of a gallon less gas for about the same period. At full load the Honda drinks a tank in 3.4 hours at full load and the Wen in 3.8, the Wen has more hp for cruising and has a larger tank. Neither will be running for an hour at full load camping.

Home Depot sells the Wen for $180.00, pretty cheap for the bang. $819 less, that buys a lot of fuel and a few gauges like a watt meter, regulator or indicator light. The Honda is the best unit, or the Yamaha at $1399 of similar size, but the best bang for the buck is clearly the Wen or a similar Champion that is RV ready. The Champion didn't have the carb compliance that the others have. The Champion is larger 3500.4000 near 100 pounds and runs about $297.00 If more power is needed that would be a good choice too.

I'll be walking out of HD with a Wen 1800 this afternoon if they have it in stock, otherwise I should get it in 3 or 4 days.

This thread has had some great comments and suggestions. I was hoping that this thread would address the planning of a system given the requirements or similar requirements rather than just address my build. We have generator, battery, solar and inverter threads, I just haven't seen one that orchestrated all the parts to achieve a goal.

In monitoring a system, what gauges are the most significant and where should the be placed? Let's assume 2 or more house batteries, one option is 2 6V golf cart batteries and a separate 12V battery. Sounds like we need some switching capabilities. :)

The generator box mentioned will most likely reduce noise by more than 10 db, much more as it will be insulated. The Honda could o in a box as well and be even quieter, but how quiet is quiet enough?
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
All syncronous-type generators - where an engine drives a rotating alternator - produce sine wave.


Only inverters produce square wave or modified square wave. (There is no such thing as modified sine wave, that's just marketing BS. If it was a sine wave to begin with, they wouldn't have to modify it. Only square waves get modified.) Used to be the good inverter-type gens had sine wave inverters and the cheap ones had modified square wave inverters.

Today, pretty much all inverter-type generators have sine wave inverters.



But all old school syncronous-type gens produce sine wave.
 

dlh62c

Explorer
.....let's address planning an electrical system


Do it in stages.

Start with adding a shore power connection.

Next source your generator, 2000 watt minimum.

A small 12vdc DC power supply can supply your DC Power until you get your batteries installed.

Add your AGM battery bank, 200ah minimum.

Source a inverter with a built in battery charger that can pass shore power though when it senses its presence.

Add a Sterling battery to battery charger to charge the house batteries when on the move.

Add a set of portable solar panels. Having the ability to park up in the shade and placing the panels away out in the sun is a plus on a HOT day.
 
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Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
All syncronous-type generators - where an engine drives a rotating alternator - produce sine wave.


Only inverters produce square wave or modified square wave. (There is no such thing as modified sine wave, that's just marketing BS. If it was a sine wave to begin with, they wouldn't have to modify it. Only square waves get modified.) Used to be the good inverter-type gens had sine wave inverters and the cheap ones had modified square wave inverters.

Today, pretty much all inverter-type generators have sine wave inverters.



But all old school syncronous-type gens produce sine wave.

Yes, thanks, I think what they are really talking about is the deviation of the wave form +/- due to an engine driven unit not running smooth enough to generate a consistent wave form pattern and that is cured electronically by an inverter....my understanding

Other than low powered electronic devices, cell, computer, etc. I don't think there is much of a requirement for a consistent wave form, appliances and common tools like a drill will still operate with power fluctuations, may be not as efficiently but the work.

12V will provide reliable and more consistent power, certainly good enough for HAM transceivers, TVs or a micro if it is sensitive to drops or cycling, don't know about micros.

I would think that all generator parts and small engines are made in Asia, if it is relatively inexpensive there is a reason for that, I'd bet even the Ford genny is from overseas.
I would not be surprised if expensive back up generators for commercial use, like hospitals have the same quality parts.

You're more electronically minded than I am, but. like you, I'm not too worried about a perfectly square wave form for over the road use.
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Fwiw, Wen sorta gives me the willies. For decades they renown as a gold standard of lightduty crapola powertools.
You know whats said about first impressions...
Nowdays I think most folks have no clue of that past & I think its just a badging company nowdays.
That generator probably made by Lifan or similar. Its price is right !!

As far as metering.
I like oldskool meters, but the new digital stuff is cool too. & suggest voltmeter & 2 ampmeters. One displays appliance load, the other meter displays charging.

Agreed, just about all the old companies built reputations when it meant something, then marketed on that reputation and cut costs, car parts, clothes, appliances, you name it, nothing is made like it use to be.

One volt meter for the output and one amp meter for each line or run is what I was thinking. I'm trying to consider putting the meters on the outside of the genny box, under cover, so they can be monitored without having to open up the box. That will mean a plug and play so the genny can be moved outside if necessary without having to undue wiring.....might be an issue with having a solid connection with some plugs/outlets.

Same for the battery bank, seems the better solar controllers have gauges already. :)
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Do it in stages.

Start with adding a shore power connection.

Next source your generator, 2000 watt minimum.

A small 12vdc DC power supply can supply your DC Power until you get your batteries installed.

Add your AGM battery bank, 200ah minimum.

Source a inverter with a built in battery charger that can pass shore power though when it senses its presence.

Add a Sterling battery to battery charger to charge the house batteries when on the move.

Add a set of portable solar panels. Having the ability to park up in the shade and placing the panels away out in the sun is a plus on a HOT day.


Well, I agree except as to the minimum of 2000 watts, my next jump would be to the 3500 Champion, but 1800 is twice what I'm needing. Also, not being in a motor home, I don't mind turning something off to run a higher load for a few minutes. Besides, it's already on order lol.

Very good point of using a charger until the battery bank is ready to go, that's another back up as well for 12V! :)
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Yes, thanks, I think what they are really talking about is the deviation of the wave form +/- due to an engine driven unit not running smooth enough to generate a consistent wave form pattern and that is cured electronically by an inverter....my understanding

Which who is talking about what what?


But, um, no.

Syncronous gens produce sine wave. The "purity" of the sine wave is pretty much irrelevant. Look at grid power on a scope and it's dirty as hell. But it's "clean enough" to get the job done. If you look closely enough, there really aren't any "pure" sine waves except under labratory conditions or at recording studios or radio stations where they've installed isolation transformers to get clean power to the equipment.



Variations in the engine rpm results in variations in the rotational speed of the alternator and that results in variations in the frequency of the AC. To keep a steady 60hz, the alternator has to spin at a steady RPM (at some multiple of 60), so syncronous gens have governors to keep them at a certain rpm. Big diesel gens usually run at 1800 rpm. Old putt-putt Lister diesels might be at 180, 300 or maybe 600. Some Onan RV gens run at 1800, some at 3600. Almost all small portables run at 3600.

The inverter-type gen was not invented as a way to make "clean power". Syncronous-type already makes clean power. It was invented as a way to de-couple the alternating frequency from the rotational speed of the alternator. By taking the AC from the alternator, rectifying it to DC and then running it through an inverter, the gen can now produce a steady 60hz - regardless of the engine/alternator rpm.

Of course, on the face of it, going AC to DC and back to AC is a stupid idea because it's a)inefficient and b)expensive. Which is why inverter-type gens are less efficient, in terms of watt*hours per gallon, than syncronous-type gens, and cost more than double to build.

But...

Since most portable gens rarely, if ever, run at full load, being able to throttle up and down according to load can really stretch out the run time per gallon. Inverter-type gens produce less watts per gallon, but they'll run for more hours per gallon...as long as they aren't fully loaded. Under full load, they run less hours per gallon than a sycronous-type.

And because they can throttle down they are quieter...again, as long as they aren't under full load and screaming along at 5k rpm...




Other than low powered electronic devices, cell, computer, etc. I don't think there is much of a requirement for a consistent wave form, appliances and common tools like a drill will still operate with power fluctuations, may be not as efficiently but the work.

The wave form is almost always consistent, it's the voltage and frequency that tend to wobble around.


Pretty much anything can work off a square wave or modified (stepped) square wave. There are only rarely things that don't. SOME battery chargers, mostly for power tools, are known to be a roll of the dice.

Most electronics don't have any problem with it. Hell, the inverters in APC UPS battery backup units for computer server rooms are modified square wave.

And everything works just fine with the dirty sine wave from the grid (noise is the the problem there).


What often smokes electronics is a drop in voltage (surges are almost never a real problem). If the parts on a circuit board are sized to carry X milliamps, and the voltage goes down, then the amps goes up and now that circuit is carrying way more milliamps than intended. Zzzzt...something gives. Could be a resistor, diode, capacitor...or maybe one of the traces on the board itself.

But that's a voltage problem and unrelated to freq or wave form.


12V will provide reliable and more consistent power, certainly good enough for HAM transceivers, TVs or a micro if it is sensitive to drops or cycling, don't know about micros.

Again, frequency. TVs and microwaves have clocks that work by counting alternations and divide by 60. If the alternating frequency goes off by 10%, then the clock will be off by 10%.

Other than that, they don't have problems with dirty sine waves or varying frequency.



You're more electronically minded than I am, but. like you, I'm not too worried about a perfectly square wave form for over the road use.

Well that's good, because the Wen 1800 is a syncronous-type that produces sine wave, not square wave.

Dunno what inverter you have, but if it's not a sine wave inverter, then it will be a modified square wave inverter. Pretty much no one makes old fashion straight square wave inverters anymore. And modified square waves are not a problem for 99.99% of stuff that runs on 120/240 60hz AC (or the more modern 230v 50hz that the vast majority of the world uses).
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
In addition to the volts and amps meters, I would also recommend a small engine hour meter.

Super simple. Internal battery usually good for around 5 years, one wire that wraps a specified number of turns around the spark plug wire, find somewhere to mount it (sticky tape or screw) on the gen and you're done.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=small+engine+hour+meter&t=fpas&iax=1&ia=products


EDIT: If you get one with a tach as well, make sure you get one for a single cylinder engine. The ones for two cylinder engines only read one plug and then double the number for the readout.

(Or do they read one plug and cut the number in half? ... Dunno. Can't remember offhand.)
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I was talking about small engine driven generators, not Hoover frickin Dam. :)

The last time I bought a small engine tach/hour meter was over 10 years ago, but I do remember having to choose between single cylinder or twin cylinder.
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Ahhhh, thanks guys, seems the lights dim before the generator dies, loss of voltage, amps drop, the square wave deforms, rpms drop, until we got notta. I'm not an electrical engineer.

I understand the hour meter, not sure how useful it would be......1. I won't be selling a low mileage genny and 2. maintenance will be regular enough 2 3 times on an oil change depending on how often I use it or, at least annually after wiping off the cob webs. I suppose it would inform me of when I should start looking for a replacement. :)
 

Metalprankster

New member
Hello new to this hole thing but looking for help with a question. I just bought a 744watt 12v led light bar for my truck. I figured that is roughly 62amps of power, they sent a ready to go switch/ relay/ fuse wiring harness. The issue is the relay is 40amp and the fuse is 30amp. I hooked Circuit to a batt to test and it works nice. But would light be brighter with increased relay and fuse? Any thoughts becouse I feel light is at half capacity but it is super bright. Thanks!
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Hello new to this hole thing but looking for help with a question. I just bought a 744watt 12v led light bar for my truck. I figured that is roughly 62amps of power, they sent a ready to go switch/ relay/ fuse wiring harness. The issue is the relay is 40amp and the fuse is 30amp. I hooked Circuit to a batt to test and it works nice. But would light be brighter with increased relay and fuse? Any thoughts becouse I feel light is at half capacity but it is super bright. Thanks!

A fully charged "12v" battery will have a resting voltage of around 12.8v. 744w ÷ 12.8v = 58a.

With the engine running, the voltage regulator will keep the system at 14v+. 744w ÷ 14v = 53a.

Both the relay and fuse can actually handle a bit more than they are rated for. If the relay isn't burning out, and the fuse isn't blowing, then swapping in higher rated switch and fuse won't change anything.

If the wire is thin and there is significant voltage drop, then thicker wire might make the light a bit brighter. Then again, just having a higher voltage with the engine running could make it brighter.



But the truth is: if you aren't blowing a 30a fuse, then that unit is not actually drawing 744w anyway.
 

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