Will Automakers Get the Market and Make Simple Vehicles Again?

[CampStewart]

No demand in numbers that would make it cost effective for manufacturers to design and build. Too many safety and EPA regulations. Even simple costs a lot more than you may think. Look at the costs of side by sides with little EPA or safety regulations and then paying 2x or 3x that much for a jeep makes sense. I think with nothing but a checkbook you could buy a jeep CJ with all new components, I would like to see that priced out.

 

[Clutch]

There is the Minecat UT99C currently being made, which is fairly basic and built to take a beating but it isn't street legal. They build them so they can be modular disassembled/rebuilt rather quickly.

Come in diesel and electric.

https://www.minecat.com/

No demand in numbers that would make it cost effective for manufacturers to design and build. Too many safety and EPA regulations. Even simple costs a lot more than you may think. Look at the costs of side by sides with little EPA or safety regulations and then paying 2x or 3x that much for a jeep makes sense. I think with nothing but a checkbook you could buy a jeep CJ with all new components, I would like to see that priced out.

Speaking of UTV's found this company, they are saying it could be used on the street, but looks barely legal. I know in some states you can make them street legal, but can't take them on the highway.


https://www.oreionmotors.com/about-oreion-motors

 

[Tex68w]

That thing looks like an airport tug and a FJ55 had a bastard child, my eyes, my eyes, they can't unsee that nightmare.

 

[Clutch]

That thing looks like an airport tug and a FJ55 had a bastard child, my eyes, my eyes, they can't unsee that nightmare.

They had a Jeep version too.

Dunno, I kinda like it...look how thick that steel is, can you imagine how much you could thrash on it? Most trucks today guys are afraid to run them through a carwash for fear of scratching it. And isn't that why trucks have become so soft now-a-days? It is odd, guys want 900 ft/lbs tq...and yet want the interior of a luxury car...something that will massage their plums with a warm yogurt. Be nice to have an interior with marine gauges, made out of steel, vinyl, and rubber, something you can hose out when the cow manure build-up on the floor board gets too much to stand.

I used to operate heavy equipment, nothing like running a machine made out of plate steel.

 

[charlieaarons]

Here's an example of someone completely renovating a simple truck (late 80s-early 90s ex Austrian Army Steyr 12M18, therefore importable into US) better than new with a few worthy upgrades and reselling it for about the price of a new chassis or slightly less - the right size for an expedition camper:
http://www.excap.de/

 

[Clutch]

Here's an example of someone completely renovating a simple truck (late 80s-early 90s ex Austrian Army Steyr 12M18, therefore importable into US) better than new with a few worthy upgrades and reselling it for about the price of a new chassis or slightly less - the right size for an expedition camper:
http://www.excap.de/

oooooh nice! I like that!

 

[Martinjmpr]

Nowadays old SUVs are selling for so much money that don't have features that would make modern vehicles cost more than they need to. People are shelling out over 20k to have a lack of features and a more utilitarian feel on vehicles from the 80s. Toyota Tacomas from the 90s and 2000s going for 10-25k. Toyota pickups from the early 90s going for 7k. A lot of people want a simple vehicle that doesn't make you feel like it's driving itself for you but feels capable nonetheless.

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No, that's just the "internet feeding frenzy" effect.
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It usually starts when somebody on some influential forum starts reminiscing about how great the XXXX vehicle was and then all of a sudden people with more money than common sense start saying "yeah! yeah! That was a great vehicle!" and they start buying them up.
.
This pushes the price up on the used market (since so many people are trying to buy from the limited supplies of the same vehicle) and when the price goes up, other people look at it and say "wow, the price for XXXX is going up, they must be GREAT vehicles!" and then THEY start paying redonkulus prices for them. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
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What you DON'T see are the hours and hours and thousands of $$ that are spent keeping those old dinosaurs on the road. Which the owners - who have now sunk lots of time and money into the vehicle and thus have a vested interest in believing that they didn't waste their money - justify by saying "yeah, but they last forever!" Well, sure, a Yugo will last forever if you keep sinking money and time into it.
.

 

[STREGA]

.
No, that's just the "internet feeding frenzy" effect.
.
It usually starts when somebody on some influential forum starts reminiscing about how great the XXXX vehicle was and then all of a sudden people with more money than common sense start saying "yeah! yeah! That was a great vehicle!" and they start buying them up.
.
This pushes the price up on the used market (since so many people are trying to buy from the limited supplies of the same vehicle) and when the price goes up, other people look at it and say "wow, the price for XXXX is going up, they must be GREAT vehicles!" and then THEY start paying redonkulus prices for them. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
.
What you DON'T see are the hours and hours and thousands of $$ that are spent keeping those old dinosaurs on the road. Which the owners - who have now sunk lots of time and money into the vehicle and thus have a vested interest in believing that they didn't waste their money - justify by saying "yeah, but they last forever!" Well, sure, a Yugo will last forever if you keep sinking money and time into it.
.

....And what you won't hear about is the 35K you invested and the hundreds of hours spent in the garage is only worth 20K when you want to sell it. I enjoy seeing a nice old restored vehicle as much as anybody, just not with my time and money.

As for automakers building a simple, no frills, cheap to buy and maintain vehicle is less likely than seeing a white unicorn jumping over a rainbow.

 

[Buliwyf]

I'd consider my F250xl to be less frills. But it still has electric W,DL, etc. etc. An auto trans is no more expensive than a manual. I miss simple Jeep YJ's.

You can get a capable truck for $40,000. Mine was $38,000. What's amazing, is simple trim upgrades can be $20,000+! For a bunch of soft feel good nonsense we don't need.

 

[rkj__]

There's a big, big market to exploit here: the market of stock manual transmissions, super utilitarian interiors, simple solid axles like true Dana 44s or Dana 60s, a back hatch that opens like a pickup truck liftgate, a diesel engine, a simple four cylinder engine, locking diffs....

I think that a LOT of people would buy this sort of thing...

I think that over a ten year span they could sell between 300 and 700 units a year. (Just guessing) How many do you think would put their money where their mouth is?

Unfortunately, none of the mainstream automakers are going to make that investment to sell so few units. It cost so much to design and manufacture a new, road worthy, unique vehicle. Everything from design work, testing (durability, crash, fuel economy...), manufacturing, marketing, etc. It cost millions, sometimes billions. Even if they could do it for $200 million, that still adds about $29,000 to the cost of a car, just to break even, before adding the cost of parts and assembly.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-develop-a-car



Personally, I'm a little torn. I'm not sure if I want my 2008 truck to run forever, or if I want to replace it with one of those new fancy trucks with USB ports.

 

[Clutch]

.
No, that's just the "internet feeding frenzy" effect.
.
It usually starts when somebody on some influential forum starts reminiscing about how great the XXXX vehicle was and then all of a sudden people with more money than common sense start saying "yeah! yeah! That was a great vehicle!" and they start buying them up.
.
This pushes the price up on the used market (since so many people are trying to buy from the limited supplies of the same vehicle) and when the price goes up, other people look at it and say "wow, the price for XXXX is going up, they must be GREAT vehicles!" and then THEY start paying redonkulus prices for them. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
.
What you DON'T see are the hours and hours and thousands of $$ that are spent keeping those old dinosaurs on the road. Which the owners - who have now sunk lots of time and money into the vehicle and thus have a vested interest in believing that they didn't waste their money - justify by saying "yeah, but they last forever!" Well, sure, a Yugo will last forever if you keep sinking money and time into it.
.

Believe people think that the old stuff is "simple", but they are quite complex machines when you rip them all apart.

 

[calicamper]

Auto makers gain lots of ability to redirect liability in lawsuits with the tech being used today. Smaller, more durable, better made tech will be the trend not less complicated.

You can blame lawsuits for a large portion of todays complicated cars and the other part is emissions restrictions.

Shoot ATVs today are more complicated than cars of the 1980’s

 

[texasnielsen]

I think this is a big deal to a lot of people. Nowadays old SUVs are selling for so much money that don't have features that would make modern vehicles cost more than they need to. People are shelling out over 20k to have a lack of features and a more utilitarian feel on vehicles from the 80s. Toyota Tacomas from the 90s and 2000s going for 10-25k. Toyota pickups from the early 90s going for 7k. A lot of people want a simple vehicle that doesn't make you feel like it's driving itself for you but feels capable nonetheless.

There's a big, big market to exploit here: the market of stock manual transmissions, super utilitarian interiors, simple solid axles like true Dana 44s or Dana 60s, a back hatch that opens like a pickup truck liftgate, a diesel engine, a simple four cylinder engine, locking diffs. Honestly, I hope that the people over at Toyota, Ford, Chevy and even Jeep get it. No, I don't need a USB slot in my car. A simple cigarette outlet or 12V at most is absolutely what I want. I want to be able to buy a new car without power windows. Still need A/C, but if I had the option to go without I would.

I think that a LOT of people would buy this sort of thing. Basically, if Toyota made yet another FJ, but it was built more like a Jeep, but with that Toyota reliability reputation, a lot of people would buy it.

Mix that with modern manufacturing methods, where the advantages of computation don't go directly into the car, but simply building it and producing it for a lower cost while maintaining reliability, and you'd have a good chunk of the market covered. Put average tires on the thing when you sell it new since people will want to swap them out anyways.

I could see the ad now... You do it in a slightly cheesy 90s style(since that stuff is now hitting the beginning of its time to start coming back into style), have someone asking why they "don't make vehicles like they used to anymore" then they introduce the new Toyota FJ, the new Ford Bronco, the new whatever, but it's built in a more original manner.

So the OP was obviously speaking of the off-road capable vehicle of lore. Products that go in to either an off-road or strickly-street auto/truck now-a-days certainly feel like a lot of hardware has been added "that isn't necessary." I just wonder what (where?) in history is the target to go back to? Drum brakes? 3-speed trannies? No power steering or brakes? (Ya ever drive a non-power assist 4X4 - off road? That is definitely not something I want to repeat.)

We can discuss/debate the practicality of so many features in any new vehicle right now. Leather interiors, power everything, hot spots with wi-fi and 8" screens, and so forth. Including the latest Wrangler with it's plethora of accessories. Here's the thing though (IMO). They are multi-use vehicles for the most part. Meaning most folk don't just use their rig for strictly trail riding. Suggesting that, I would offer that a great deal of the technology in transportation now-a-days is about safety. I am not talking about the extreme mark up's on the "accessories" that the dealers love. But the stuff that makes them much, much safer to drive. Things like crumple zones, anti-lock braking, adaptive cruise control (LOL), self-parking, etc. There must be a lot of R&D costs sunk into that stuff, no? Is that the reason for such a high point of entry before accessorizing?

Seeing as we are sharing the roads on the way to the trails, I like knowing that most of the vehicles on the road with me have a legitimate chance at stopping at the red light, etc. My ex-wife couldn't parallel park to save her life. To her, the cars/trucks that park themselves are a life saver (she now lives in a large East Coast "community" where parallel parking is definitely a requirement. More on the "who's" driving in a moment.)

So all in all I don't think peeps are shelling out the bucks for older vehicles because they are less packed with gizmos and so forth. I drove a '74 Bronco for years. Restoring one as a collectable is one thing. Restoring one to original condition and then thinking it's a better vehicle for off-roading that today's products? I don't think so.

IMO people do want the niceties. Just look at the aftermarket today. All the "stuff" everyone insists they "need" now from the aftermarket industry. I think peeps are buying these older vehicles because that's all they can afford. If someone wanted bare bones, why not just stick with an ATV or side-by-side, etc.

All that to say that in fifty years or so how much driving will actually be by someone with a driver's license? LOL.... (will we still call it "driving" when its oogle or Nile doing our driving?)

:ylsmoke:

 

[Martinjmpr]

It's always tempting to look at the past through rose colored glasses. Yes, I remember the days of manual steering, drum brakes on all 4 corners, carbs that balked at high altitudes or vapor locked on hot days, suspensions that rattled your fillings loose on washboard roads, oh, and the glories of getting 10mpg out of a V8 engine that made a whopping 180 HP on a good day (my old Blazer.)
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Remember when cars used to have 5 digit odometers because by the time a vehicle had "turned over" 100k it needed pretty much a complete rebuild? Nowadays getting 100k on a modern truck or 4x4 is nothing to even mention.
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It's fun to take a mental trip down memory lane, where the scary brakes, crappy tires and wobbly steering won't interfere with your fantasy.
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For those that really WANT an old vehicle, there are thousands of them on CL. Knock yourself out.
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Old vehicles are like a crazy ex girlfriend. It's more fun to reminisce about the wild sex than it is to reminisce about the time she got you thrown in jail or called you at 3am threatening suicide.

 

[Comanche Scott]

About as simplistic an expedition capable vehicle as possible, that is still road legal in the U.S.
https://www.arielna.com/arielnomad/
I'm waiting for the optional roof rack kit to add a roof top tent.

And for those expeditionists who don't get off the pavement:
https://www.arielna.com/arielatom/
Probably better to stay in hotels when expeditioning across the country in this one.

Neither are cheap, but if happiness is measured by the bugs in one's teeth, these rate higher than a BMW 1200GS. :victory: