Roof design examples and comment

[haven]

This thread is prompted by a request from Mike Van Pelt for
a place to talk about the height and design of the rooff for
an expedition camper

I can think of five different directions you might go with a roof,
plus a few pros and cons for each design.

What do you think?

Chip Haven


1. Hard top with fixed roof height

This is the way most campers are built, with full stand-up room
inside at all times

For example, here is group member FusoFG's full height camper

Don and Kim Greene's camper is also full height

advantages:

easier to build

less complicated / no roof-raising mechanism to fail

full interior is available anytime

usually possible to have larger glass windows

more interior cabinets mounted on walls

no complicated seals / dust can't enter as easily

fewer concerns about weight placed on the roof

not as obvious that you're camping on the street overnight


disadvantages:

clearance overhead can be a problem on trails

Jeeps in Colorado

Stephen Stewart's Unimog camper

height an issue on off-camber roads (camper leans out farther)

Mike Van Pelt's Unicat U500 in action

can't load into a container
...may be possible by mounting small-diameter steel disc wheels

Are these issues enough to dissuade you from choosing a taller camper?

 

[haven]

2. Pop-up top with fabric walls

In this type of camper, the roof retracts while you're driving.
When camping, the roof lifts straight up or the entire roof flips
180 degrees

This is Kym Bolton's Canter FG with the roof raised

and here is the same camper fitting into a shipping container

Polycomposit is a French company that makes a pop-up roof
that mounts to the frame of small pickups

Other manufacturers of pop-up soft-sided roof campers that slide
into a pickup truck bed include
Four Wheel Camper, Host, Outfitter, Hallmark and Northstar


advantages of a popup with fabric walls

low profile while driving

full stand-up height throughout once the roof is raised

best ventilation via large zip-open windows

canvas sides can be repaired without special tools or materials

canvas sides are lighter, so a less powerful roof lifting mechanism is OK


disadvantages

poor protection against severe weather unless a rain fly is added

single-layer fabric sides don't insulate well

fabric walls are not as weatherproof as hard walls

fabric has to be re-sealed against water penetration every few years

fabric will need to be replaced after 10? years

roof lowering is more complicated
... fabric has to be tucked inside and not pinched by top when closed

it's like a tent, so you may feel less secure

if roof flips over to open (Flip-Pac, Earthroamer EV-JP), then you're
very limited to what can be placed on roof, or you have to remove
everything from the roof before opening the top.

 

[haven]

3. Pop-up roof with hard walls

There are a few manufacturers who make a pop-up camper
with hard sides that lift straight up. Alaskan Camper, Oregon Camper
and XP Camper are three that come to mind.

Here is a custom Alaskan Camper, mounted on a Dodge Sprinter chassis

And here is a European design (I don't remember which company
makes this!) When the roof is lowered it covers the windows for
security.

Highrise is an Australian company that makes an interesting hard side design
with a bedroom slideout.

advantages:

low profile while driving reduces fuel consumption, avoids obstacles

full standing room throughout when roof is raised

offers better weather protection than canvas sides
...better insulated, no worries about adding a rain fly in heavy rain

better protected against intrusion by bears and other animals
...OK for campgrounds with bear problems

hardtop walls can protect windows when down (depending on design)

can be designed to drive into a shipping container

psychological feeling of greater security with hard walls


disadvantages

heavier than soft top

mechanism to raise top adds weight, takes power

difficult to seal out dust while driving

raised roof says "I'm camping here" to authorities and passersby

to make the roof over the truck cab as low as possible, some designs
have folding sidewalls, which let in dust and rain when you're setting up

 

[haven]

4. Swing up soft top
These campers have one side of the top attached to a hinge, and use fabric walls.
The most familiar example is the Westfalia pop-top roof on a VW camper.

Here's an example from Australia

And here's a Land Rover with a modified roof

advantages

low height while driving

Simplest pop-up design

hinge supports weight, keeps top and side walls aligned
...so lifting mechanism can be simpler and less powerful
...a manually powered lifting system may be possible


disadvantages

full standup height is not available near the hinge

same disadvantages as full-length pop-up with fabric walls,
described in message #2 above.

 

[haven]

5. Swing up hard side top

The least common design has a roof that is attached to the body
of the camper using a hinge on one side, and that has hard walls
that pop up when the roof is opened.

One clever design is by J Baldwin of Quickup Camper. The design
looks like a simple bed cap when closed, but opens to provide
basic shelter.

Innovan, an Australian company, has another design for a "hinge-up
hard wall" camper. This camper is avaliable for a flatbed, or as a trailer.

The pop-up hardwall that hinges from the side has the advantages and
disadvantages of the pop-up hardwall that lifts straight up (message 3 above). The hinge keeps the top aligned
during its movement so there needs to be less cross bracing. And the hinge carries some of the weight of the roof.

 

[haven]

OK -- which design do you prefer, and why? Please post examples of designs you like!

Chip Haven

 

[FusoFG]

Chip,

Interesting question.

I had a vw diesel westfalia pop top and the picture of the Fuso with the 2 white dogs is my second hard top camper on a FG chassis.

We could sleep in the westfalia with the top down if we were trying to keep a "low profile". At 5' tall, my wife is short enough to cook with the top down.

We only needed to raise the roof if we were camped for a longer time and wanted to stand up or we wanted to sleep in the upper bunk to catch the best breeze in warm weather.

I have been thinking of building a smaller camper with a pop top on my original 93 FG. We could use it on tighter more techical trails or in a 2 vehicle caravan to bring along siblings, children or grandchildren.


Other drawbacks with a pop top are:

A cloth pop top is less secure when camping in grizzly country.

Either a cloth or hard sided pop top in my opinion makes it harder to build a stand up shower.

The reason we sold the westfalia and built the Fuso camper was to get a shower (and, oh yeah, 4wd).

Tom

 

[Accrete]

Hi Chip, fun thread. Like Tom in his post, my wife and i had a (1980) westfalia pop top with the angled roof design and loved it.

I'm going to add this little tid bit from personal experience with some comments. At another thread on this site is the following picture:

... and here is a picture of my wife's and my TACO-Liner (Tacoma+Aliner) :

What i wanted to comment on is that the roof design is quite nice. There are no mechanics to it other than four piano hinges, four corner springs, and two bungies. It goes up even in pouring rain with little a-do. The rain sounds pleasant, snow slides off, and boy what a view out of the windows!

I believe that one could make a camper utilizing this design but with higher walls, maybe 5ft? or 6ft? Then have the bed above similar to what takes place with some of the Unicats. I know there is weight involved, but you could make the box shorter, 12 to 14 ft on a fuso and have a usable bathroom while on the road, easy access to the kitchen, and then once in camp pop the top and have a little A-Frame cabin all your own.

My wife and i have visited RV show after show, and for a 14ft x 7ft floor size we have never been in any RV that was so inviting and open as the Aliner/Chalet hard sided aframes. Everything on the roof/walls is user fixable. It truly is a simple design and sheds wind and rain like an A-frame would. Many of those in the A-Frame club have solar panels, and a couple have even rigged up solar hot water radiator setups for shower/sink use. Pretty nice.

: ) Thom

 

[dhackney]

Chip,

Some additional factors for soft sides:

• noise
• wind
• water ingress while setting up (which I think you mentioned for one design)
• wear points

Every couple/person I've interviewed with a soft side, lift top design has mentioned one or more of these factors, or we have experienced them on other campers.

Noise/sound is a real issue in overlanding. When in a transit stage, you often sleep in fuel stations, in front of police stations and in central plazas. All of these locations can be very loud, and there is basically no inbound sound insulation with a soft side. The same is true for outbound sounds as well.

Wind is a very big consideration for areas such as Patagonia. The wind there is not like wind you think of in everyday life. It truly is a force of nature, the 5th element, as it were. People I have interviewed with soft tops went extended periods where they could not erect the top because the winds were too strong. It is hard to imagine until you experience it.

Water ingress while setting up is an issue in heavy, wind blown rain.

Wear points are a constant issue. Even the best designs are subject to wear, and once weakend, tears and holes.


Shot of typical Land Rover Defender 110 soft top setup.

Peter Hander & Stefanie Furer, Swiss, 2001 Land Rover Defender

 

[Lynn]

IIRC when the Wescott's crossed Siberia in Turtle III they were unable to lift the soft-sided poptop because the material was brittle at extreme low temperatures.

I doubt, however, if the brittleness was really an issue. At very low temps one would probably have to leave the top down simply due to the poor insulation of the soft sides.

 

[OutbacKamper]

The mainstream North American RV industry is starting to introduce more hybrid designs. At there best they combine the advantages of hardside and soft side pop-ups. I think this idea of having a hardside camper with a fold out soft side tent is a great idea for an expedition camper. Here is an example from Host (the side slide out would not be so great for an EC).
Another example from Lance.

Cheers
Mark

 

[ntsqd]

Some thoughts on various aspects of the topic:

Seems to me that the insulation issue with soft sides need only copy the better sleeping bag batten designs and incorporate some insulation. How much would be a trade off with how much collapsed room could be given to it.
Alternately the insulation could be a 'curtain', again copying the better bag batten design(s), that is independent of the actual soft side and is either fastened in place when needed or stowed out of the way (rolled up ala tent doors?).The only illustration that I found with a short search:

With a hard sided pop-top, could there not be a flexible boot be attached such that either a wiper type seal or a labyrinth type seal would be redundant?



Having seen pictures of what a western Sierras black bear can do to a car when in search of food, I think even the hard walls of a Unicat etc. impart a very false sense of security.

 

[HMR]

Great thread!
:lurk:

 

[Atticus_1354]

I have always loved the soft pop tops. But my interests also run toward smaller vehicle like jeeps and land cruisers. I think the overall GVWR of your chosen transport needs to be considered. If your running a FG truck or other large truck a hard side setup is a great way to go. But it is hard to beat the pop tops for small camper vans and suvs.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Roof designs

I can think of five different directions you might go with a roof,
plus a few pros and cons for each design.

What do you think?

Chip Haven

Chip What I think, is that you have got the most amazing ability to pull pics out of thin air to describe exactly what you are saying. Thanks.

Having alot of trouble with my photo sharing site at the moment, but I had hoped to join this thread with some roof profile pics and opinions of pop top v fixed roof , yada yada. Also trying to talk the boss into letting me post some sneak peaks of our new pop top onto ExPo before offical release. Perfect opportunity for some feedback.Will get back soon. Is Picasa easy to use?

BTW This truck isn't the same one as the FG on the beach. Trust me. Know every nut and bolt on that one and the one in the container definitely isn't it. Maybe it's an Izusu??? Does look like our body profile though.

Oh and Thom, great idea about optional insulation for the soft sides on the pop top. Want a job?

John