Thoughts on suspension for an expedition bicycle

[Christophe Noel]

And there's only so many things you can predict or carry. .

That was to some degree my point. You can plunk down for some $9000 exotic and get hosed by the simplest of failures just as you would on a $500 LBS special. You can try to mitigate those failures by limiting the complexity of your stead, but never entirely.

 

[TCM]

Although it makes me contrarian among this group I suggest that full suspension is the way to go or at the very least front suspension with a soft tail rear. A well engineered and well maintained full suspension bicycle is not going to have reliability issues as long as it is not over loaded with excessive cargo nor abused by the rider. In other words stay within GVW and have mechanical sympathy for the machine. If all you plan to ride is fire roads and other high speed dirt tracks then the positive attributes of a suspended bike are somewhat mitigated. However, one of the advantages of a bike is the ability to travel on single track and other trails which are not accessible to full sized motorized vehicles. When on these type of trails the terrain is often rough and broken. The additional comfort, stability and control provided by suspension under these conditions cannot be over stated.

While I agree that larger tires can serve as a kind of suspension, the Surly Pugsley being the best example, these bikes straddle a middle ground and are really most suited for travel on loose surfaces such as sand and especially snow. The large tires provide great flotation, but they also have much more rolling resistance when deflated to the pressures necessary to act as suspension. The availability of replacement tires, tubes and rims is also very low, much lower than say suspension components.

The ultimate setup might possibly be full suspension combined with 29" wheels, the greater diameter of which allows them to roll more easily over obstacles and other irregularities on the trail. A custom Moots YBB 29'er would fit the bill quite nicely.

 

[DaveInDenver]

That was to some degree my point. You can plunk down for some $9000 exotic and get hosed by the simplest of failures just as you would on a $500 LBS special. You can try to mitigate those failures by limiting the complexity of your stead, but never entirely.

Yup, that's my point. If there was zero risk of the unknown then life would be pretty boring. So you minimize the inconvenience, reduce the chance of major problems and set off and see what happens. You might have the right part, you might not, but with a fully rigid bike you can be pretty easily carry anything critical and rig-up most anything else.

 

[Christophe Noel]

This is going to sound wierd, but I think the more impactful question is how do you plan to carry your stuff in this rig? Trailers are really lame, lame, lame unless you're navigating pretty tame terrain....like a road. Panniers have been the standard, and while I think they'll always have their place in touring, if it's at all possible to NOT use panniers, one really should try not to. Riding off-piste on singletrack will always mean pushing is inevitable. Could be 100 yards of pushing, could be ten miles and a thousand feet of gain. Count on the latter. Pushing a bike with panniers isn't difficult, but doing the same with a rig sans panniers is waaaaay easier.

Some of the newer bag systems are really slick. Riverfever and I use Carousel Design Works bags and they're absolutely brilliant. They'll easily put 30 pounds on your rig with very little distrubance to how the bike rides.

That should be another criteria in this bike selection process - ride quality. Who wants to slave away on some donkey-bike all day? Your bike should still be fun to ride even when loaded.

 

[FreeManDan]

In my last bicycle related post, I used the word widget....

1.3in of travel
http://store.canecreek.com/product/part_number=ST4*/1739.0.31216.56907.0.0.0


or 3in of travel
http://store.canecreek.com/product/part_number=ST3*/1739.0.31216.56906.0.0.0

if you shop around you can find better prices then cane creek direct.

I’m not sure how, or if you can adjust the rebound on the seat posts, but when I test rode a 3in travel it bounce be sky high....no lie, sky high

also look at...

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/SE308B00-Kalloyguizzo+Forged+Head+Suspension+Post.aspx

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/SE308B05-Tamer+Pivot+Plus+Suspension+Seatpost.aspx

 

[bmwstbill@yahoo.com]

Hello,
Anyone care to recommend an updated hydraulic fork for this rig- Litespeed Ocoee-'99.
It all mine now but I'm not a rich man.
Found it in the corner of the lbs and started adding parts.

It will be my treking bicycle.

Thanks,
bill

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

this thread may be helpful for anyone interested in MTB touring
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/lightweight-touring-410393.html

 

[chris_the_wrench]

Hello,
Anyone care to recommend an updated hydraulicfork for this rig.
It all mine, I'm not a rich man.
Found it in the corner of the lbs and started adding parts.

bill

I assume its 1 1/8" headtube, I dont remember litespeed doing a 1". Your problem is the rim brakes and staying with a short travel(so your geometry doesn't get jacked up). I usually recommend the rockshox dart to customers in similar situations, but their bikes usually weren't that nice to begin with.

. If you can find a slightly used or maybe nos rockshox duke, that would be nice on there.

 

[bmwstbill@yahoo.com]

Thanks bike Mech,
The fork on the bicycle really isn't worn out doing a visual although I haven't disassembled it. Tubes look good
I don't know the history or reliability of the Manitou SX Ti, maybe it has many road miles left in it.
It works OK absorbing road static and the trailer pulls straight at 25mph down hill but I was leary about the age and parts situation for Manitou especially outside the USA.

I see fork seaals and figured they are the first to fail. Can you educate me on availability of parts from this era. I am familiar with motorcycle suspension and have rebuilt many(and seen many fail) so I am suspecious of the older Manitou fork.

Read the tuning manual so I understand the suspension setup and an oil change sounds easy...dump and replace.
Any more advice on what to look for is appreciated.

If it a lost cause please just say it.

Thanks again,
bill

 

[chris_the_wrench]

I've never been a huge fan of Manitou forks, but regardless of the brand parts availability for something that old is limited to what you can find on ebay or in a dark corner of some shop.

Perhaps I missed it, but what are your intentions for this bike? Do you really need a suspension fork?

-Chris

 

[bmwstbill@yahoo.com]

Chris,
It's a camping bike, a comfort bike, a bicycle RV and a tough as nails touring bike for an old man with 5 broken collar bones, all the ribs, broken back, etc, etc, ex-motorcycle racer who rode his mc around the world a couple of times and is bored with engines cause he has fixed so many.

It's a dual sport bicycle.
It's the future and the past.
I will live out there on it.

Haul my gear, go anywhere.
I always had Euro mc's, last is a KTM Adventure.
That's the inspiration for the bicycle build.

Think Koga world tour bicycles.

The bicycle has to go here.
Gobi desert, Mongolia.
(picture of idiot bike builder too)

bill

 

[chris_the_wrench]

Well if someone came in and told me that description I would steer them toward a rigid fork with some carbon bars and oury grips. That would be a simple settup that would take care of the vibrations(which I think are the most exhausting). That titanium frame is a great choice.

But with your injuries you may need a suspension fork to keep your body happy. That suspension seatpost will help, but you may want to look at a thudbuster. They don't change your saddle to pedal length as dramatically as the style you currently have.

-Chris

 

[bmwstbill@yahoo.com]

Chis,
Thanks for the suggestion of the Thud buster, not too much money and looks like a real back saver. I get the design, real unique with the multiple link for maintaining seat height..

Could you send a link to the rigid forks you are suggesting, I'll take a look.
I did some more adjusting on the Manitou and it really does suck up the tar lines and small bumps. Hard to believe because the travel is so short. I got on loose, freshly graded pit run gravel and that was much different and rough.I lightened the compression damping and that helped some.I had the tires hard so they skittered around. Well I stayed up and the climbing was OK only wanting for more leg.

Since the Manitou doesn't have a cartridge, just oil and shims about the only thing I know of that could wear out with this style suspension is the sliding bushings internally, probably teflon coated or some such. Based on how mc suspension lasts, that design in bicycles on the road should be very long lived. Motorcycle suspension of that design is good for 100k miles.

What's the quality of bicycle forks?
Do they stand up in your experience?

The performance of the Manitou is fine enough but I already see the Thudbuster and the fork in place.

I have another question also.
I have a Surly LHT as my back up bike that my gf has stolen but we exchange.
Anyway the Surly has 36 hole Alex Adventure rims on Shimano LX hubs, the Litespeed has Mavic 32 hole 717 rims on the same hubs. Should I switch wheels taking the 36 holers for the Litespeed?

What's the strongest or is it a wash.
Thanks again, bill

 

[bmwstbill@yahoo.com]

Jay h says:

Jay h replied in a different thread:


Bill you are going to need more than just a fork as fork with brake posts are all but extinct. Any rock shox that is not the dart and any fox fork will be a huge improvement. I would recommend the avid BB7 disc brake as it will probably work with the lever you already have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a disc only up front. Of course the other issue is that you have to get a wheel with a disc hub. Seriously they dont even make good forks with brake posts any more. Dont put a fork with additional travel on as it will effect the geometry and handling and if your happy with it currently why change. Sticking with the same axle to crown height will do you well. You probably need a fork with 80mm travel. Many can be shimmed down to this.

I would not even consider a used suspension fork, I know exactly what the internals look like when they come off my bikes, worn out. Just imagine every used fork as an engine with 120,000 miles and no oil changes at all, not even so much as checking the level with the dip stick, this gets you close to the condition of most used forks, pour some sand and water in and were there. A used fork may look nice but it will be full of sludge that smells like cat crap.

A decent fork is not cheap expect to pay about 400 bucks. Since you probably need a new front wheel for the disc any way dont limit your self to standard 9mm drop outs like the fork you have, a 15mm thru axle is better in every way. A good air fork will allow you to adjust for loaded and unloaded weights. A rock shox solo air is particularly reliable. NO suspension product is low maintenance. Most never do preventive maintenance on forks even thought they typically have a service interval of only 100 hours, I recommend doing the maintenance or having it done.

The cheap way out is to go rigid. This has its own pros and cons.

My reply to Jay:

Jay,
Sounds like at the very least I need to disassemble the Manitou forks to check bushings and shims and at least try to find fresh fork seals.

If the bushings are still good could I expect some years of road riding with oil changes?

At least so far thw forks have passed the shake and smell test, they are good.
One saving grace is that the manuals are all on line for tuning and rebuilding.

I have done many motorcycle forks so the bicycle forrks don't seem like Mission Impossible to tear them down but I get fooled every day.

Your advice on rigid forks would be appreciated.

Bike mech has suggested a better seat post in a previos thread. I can dig that.

Every rigid fork I have ridden on so far was shake and bake compared to the antique Manitou..

Thanks,
bill

 

[Jay H]

Flounders advice about avoiding panniers could not be more spot on.

This thread is cool in that it really seems to highlight the difference between touring, dirt touring, and bike packing.

A frame bag custom fitted to your frame and a few various other bags are the way to go. I use panniers on my fargo but there really just for commuting and running errands or road tours. Off road and real single track they are awful even on the fargo which is crazy stable. Also its much cheaper to shave pounds on camping gear than it on bike parts. Once you spend about 2500 on a mountain bike taking off additional weight gets expensive. Suspension or rigid is really about where you like to ride, that said most if not all of the Arizona Trail 700 contenders, Scott Morris, Chad Brown and Lee Blackwell in particular tend to ride short travel full suspension 29ers with crazy light camping gear and frame bags.

Flounder is spot on again with the assertion that dialing in and perfecting your bike packing kit is super important.

Bill

I would do some googleing many manitou sx ti forks were recalled. Many of the cast magnesium lowers cracked at the drop outs or across the brake arch. I broke one when I was a junior class racer and weighted all of 110 lbs. I really dont trust them. I also broke a manitou mach 5 by snapping off both legs right under the crown, one of the elastomers inside even flew out and hit me in the chest. The second instance I was riding trials so it dosnt really count. I have not had other forks fail catastrophically and I am a lot heaver and even more aggressive now.

Also no one pays msrp for a fork, year end close outs can be so much less. When a good sale happens its easy to pick up a for around 400 bucks or about half the msrp.