NEW propane tank procedure

SWbySWesty

Fauxverland Extraodinaire
So I fell victim to the new propane tank bad fill. How was I supposed to know you have to fill it a bit and then let it drain the air out to replace with propane vapor?

So just a note if you're buying a 5lb/10lb propane tank for your Coleman stove, to do that. It's actually in the Coleman help section for the symptoms I had, but when I bought the tank I wasn't informed of this requirement.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
All new tanks are filled with compressed air. When you fill them for the first time inform the person filling them that it's a new tank and needs to be purged.

It's not usually an issue if they know.
 

Herbie

Rendezvous Conspirator
All new tanks are filled with compressed air. When you fill them for the first time inform the person filling them that it's a new tank and needs to be purged.

It's not usually an issue if they know.

My fill guy always adds a little gas then vent it to chill the tank also, which aides in getting more gas into the tank.
 

SWbySWesty

Fauxverland Extraodinaire
Yea, I didn't inform the guy it was a new tank. Oh, well, lesson learned. I'll be refilling it this week.
 

rezdiver

Adventurer
My fill guy always adds a little gas then vent it to chill the tank also, which aides in getting more gas into the tank.

I dont think that is how it works. propane is liquid, you will only get so much in there and they fill by weight. even if it was gas, as soon as it starts to fill it will instantly warm up caused by the fill pressure negating any chill effect.
 

Herbie

Rendezvous Conspirator
I dont think that is how it works. propane is liquid, you will only get so much in there and they fill by weight. even if it was gas, as soon as it starts to fill it will instantly warm up caused by the fill pressure negating any chill effect.

Propane in a tank is technically "gas over liquid". When "full", a 20lb tank has 20lbs of propane, but there is volume of the tank that contains gas (i.e. the tank is not 100% full of liquid), this is why you can't use a tank on its side unless it is designed to be used this way with a pickup tube clocked to the 12:00 position, you'll dispense liquid instead of gaseous propane.

The propane coming from the bulk tank (your filler) is already liquid. It is not going to be compressed any further by any part of the fill operation. There is no "heating up" from the fill pressure. The pressure on the supply side is literally the vapor pressure of the propane at room temperature. (Approximately 110psi @ 70F)

When you transfer liquid propane from the bulk tank to the portable tank, the liquid propane will absorb some of the ambient heat energy from the tank as it expands into the space. You cannot completely prevent some expansion, as the volume of the tank is fixed. If the tank was like a balloon, and expanded as more liquid was added, then you could keep the propane almost entirely liquid, but since the tank is rigid, there's a brief period where there's a small amount of liquid propane in a (relatively) large empty volume, so the gas will expand to fill the volume and in the process absorb heat.

Now, the faster you fill the tank, the more you can minimize this effect, because you're replacing the "empty" volume with more liquid, offering less reserve volume for gas expansion. Conversely, if you were to try to "slow fill" a tank (like say over the course of an hour), you would have a hard time getting 20 full pounds of propane into the tank because the gaseous propane would be occupying most of the volume and you would have to re-compress the gas to make room for the liquid - which you can't really do without a compressor, since you only have the working vapor pressure of propane on your side.

In all of this, in order for the liquid propane to expand to fill the volume of the tank, it needs to absorb heat energy from the surrounding environment (the tank). Pre-chilling the tank creates a temporary deficit of available energy, so that when you start adding the liquid propane, there is less available energy to "boil" the propane and more of it will stay in liquid form. This is a sort-lasting effect, but it can make the difference between getting a "full" 20 lbs into a tank or just getting 18, for example.

On a smaller scale - watch someone fill a CO2 paintball tank. Depending on the flow rate of your fill rig and the ambient temperature, it can be almost impossible to "fill" a tank by weight without pre-chilling because there is so little reserve volume within the tank.
 

rezdiver

Adventurer
and there you have it.
good explanation Herbie, thanks:)

so if your tank is being filled from the bulk tank basically by the weight of the liquid pushing into your tank and the gas pressure at the top of the bulk tank. all this is flowing down into your tank. would the expanding propane that is sitting at the top of your tank not migrate its way up the hose into the bulk tank? if not i am assuming a oneway check valve on the hose.

would a small volume vertical vent tube at the hose to trap the gas expansion from the tank while the liquid is pushing down not give a complete fill, and why is this not done? this would also eliminate a bad fill as the gas or air is being pushed out the top into the trap (then vented to the atmosphere once fill is complete)with the liquid taking its place.
 

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