Theoretical questions on a Grand Wagoneer

[Black Dog]

So here is a little bit of background: My wife and I have a fully restored 1977 Airstream International Land Yacht, a 31 footer that weighs in at a little over 4 tons dry with probably close to 1500 tongue weight. But the problem is we don't have a vehicle to pull it so it just sits next to hour house. We have kind of a strong attachment to it and selling it is not an option, so that means we have to get a vehicle strong enough to safely pull it at reasonable highway speeds (like 55 or faster) with power enough to get it over mountain passes and up steep hills.

I've been looking at 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, both unleaded and diesel. The plan all along was to find something with the extra bench seat so that there is room for the dogs and the (future) kid. What I've been seeing is that the newer the trucks I look at the more they cost, but the older they are and closer to our price range we get the more beat up they are. Ideally we'd like to find something close to the same age as the camper.

So today I was looking at FSJs, the Grand Wagoneer specifically. No doubt one from the 70s under AMCs supervision with the 360 or the 401 engine would have the power to pull it, but would the rest of the vehicle be able to handle it? What I'm thinking is that I could get good load rated tires, add airbags to the rear leaf springs, maybe gear it down a little, and beef up the brakes. I wouldn't be building the truck for any serious off road use, it might see some rough forest service roads but nothing too wild, the intentions for it are for pulling the camper. So that said, what all would need to be done to optimize it for this task?

 

[Root Moose]

I constantly waffle back and forth between a WJ and a FSJ as the next Jeep.

The WJ would be be gas and go. But will the rear bench be big enough for two teenage boys in the future?

The FSJ would be old and is likely to need some work even if you find something that is in great shape.

Then there is the issue of dealing with the quirks of an old vehicle. I would likely chase the quirks and end up with a big mega-project like I tend to do with everything I touch.

If you can find an FSJ that is in good shape and you can resist the urge to leave it alone I think it could be workable.

Are you sure about the weight of your trailer? Is that the actual weight or the gross weight? I don't think a Wagoneer of any vintage would be enough machine to deal with ~8000lbs. You need to find out the GVWR and tow rating of the Wagoneer before pursuing. I know for certain that a WJ tow rating is 6500 lbs with the 4.7 V8 but I could never find a decent value for the Wagoneer. I've seen 5000 lbs as being the limit mentioned for the Wagoneer at online sites but that number was not backed up with a proper citation or reference.

FWIW, here's a table with engine power ratings through the production run of the FSJ. The engine ratings are nothing to write home about.

http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/engines.html

The brakes on a Wagoneer are nothing special either. I can't see it being able to deal with a 8k lb trailer properly.

 

[96discoXD]

I constantly waffle back and forth between a WJ and a FSJ as the next Jeep.

The WJ would be be gas and go. But will the rear bench be big enough for two teenage boys in the future?

The FSJ would be old and is likely to need some work even if you find something that is in great shape.

Then there is the issue of dealing with the quirks of an old vehicle. I would likely chase the quirks and end up with a big mega-project like I tend to do with everything I touch.

If you can find an FSJ that is in good shape and you can resist the urge to leave it alone I think it could be workable.

Are you sure about the weight of your trailer? Is that the actual weight or the gross weight? I don't think a Wagoneer of any vintage would be enough machine to deal with ~8000lbs. You need to find out the GVWR and tow rating of the Wagoneer before pursuing. I know for certain that a WJ tow rating is 6500 lbs with the 4.7 V8 but I could never find a decent value for the Wagoneer. I've seen 5000 lbs as being the limit mentioned for the Wagoneer at online sites but that number was not backed up with a proper citation or reference.

FWIW, here's a table with engine power ratings through the production run of the FSJ. The engine ratings are nothing to write home about.

http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/engines.html

The brakes on a Wagoneer are nothing special either. I can't see it being able to deal with a 8k lb trailer properly.

Agreed, I would suggest a newer vehicle than an FSJ. I had a 2005 WK with the 4.7 and towing package and I towed all of 6500 lbs, I once pulled a Land Rover Disco 1 on a pretty heavy flatbed, I was probably over the 6500 lb mark and it cruised right along at 70 with the cruise on. If you're much over that with the 31' airstream I would definitely stick with a 3/4 ton full size crew cab truck though, the longer wheelbase and heavier brakes will be a big plus. The one problem I had with the WK was that with the relatively short wheelbase if the trailer swayed at all it quickly became the tail wagging the dog, I had a close call because my dad hadn't properly loaded one of his cars (not enough tongue weight) and I was fishtailing going down the highway until I could get it slowed down.

 

[Eaglefreek]

It might do the job with 1 ton or larger axles and suspension mods but I don't think the engine may be up to the task. You might want to ask over at http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/index.php I would prefer a diesel to pull that much weight. One of these would do the trick http://www.100dollarman.com/trucks.html

 

[Metal Twister]

Having one of each Id have to say neither. They just arent built for towing. The unibody of the WJ and fairly light duty brakes would rule it out for me. My FSJ has been heavly re worked with all newer Chevy components with the intention of towing with it. Soon I will be up grading to a 454 to get me over the mountians. Fuel injection will also be in order for the FSJ at the same time. You might want to visit your local transmission shop and just ask what they think of the V8 Jeep Transmissions for towing. Great wheelers and adventure rigs but for towing a trailer that big, well Id be thinking Suburban with a big block or even a Power Stroker Expedition. Your WJ will pull it but at what cost? Just my 2 cents what ever its worth.

 

[BKCowGod]

I loved my AMC 360's, but I don't think I would trust the brakes...

Meanwhile, http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/2052325944.html

 

[Root Moose]

Meanwhile, http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/2052325944.html

This would be more the right tool for the job if you wanted a wagon versus a pickup.

This particular truck is kind of confusing though... it's a 1500 with 8 lug hubs? I thought the 8 lug V was 2500... or does the fact it is diesel change things? Maybe I'm muddled because I haven't looked at these in such a long time?

At any rate, if you go with a V hold out for a 2500. They are taller and more HD.

2¢

 

[Root Moose]

FWIW, I found a torrent file for a 1989 Grand Wagoneer owner's manual.

The Jeep is rated Class III which at that time was 5000lb towed, 750lb tongue.

 

[getlost4x4]

have had a commander and FSJ. i would tow 6500 lbs with the commander before i ever touched the FSJ. the FSJ brakes (or lack thereof) suck. it can barely stop itself.

the commander would put you through the windshield when you touched the brakes. it towed great as well. i had the 4.7 L V8 with the towing package on it. it pulled fine. i know i overloaded it with trailer and the FSJ a few times and it was okay pulling it around. always plenty of power and brakes.

the bodies of the commander and GC are very well made. these are not like the XJ's and ZJ's of old. they are very strong, the "frame" is made from two layers of 1/8" sheet metal. the bodies do not flex or twist when used off road. they also have sub-frames front and rear for the suspension, engine, and tow package.

 

[BKCowGod]

This would be more the right tool for the job if you wanted a wagon versus a pickup.

This particular truck is kind of confusing though... it's a 1500 with 8 lug hubs? I thought the 8 lug V was 2500... or does the fact it is diesel change things? Maybe I'm muddled because I haven't looked at these in such a long time?

At any rate, if you go with a V hold out for a 2500. They are taller and more HD.

2¢

Disclaimer - I know nothing about 'burbans in general, nor this one in particular. But that seems like a lot of vehicle for $5k. I wish I could get that drivetrain in the smaller Tahoe, but I guess Dizzel blazers do exist if I really wanna go fullsize again and that's not too much smaller.

 

[Root Moose]

the bodies of the commander and GC are very well made. these are not like the XJ's and ZJ's of old. they are very strong, the "frame" is made from two layers of 1/8" sheet metal. the bodies do not flex or twist when used off road. they also have sub-frames front and rear for the suspension, engine, and tow package.

This is true and applies to the WJ as well. The WJ has some pretty decent aftermarket support and stiffeners are not even on the radar as a product - at least I've never seen any and I've gone looking thinking I needed to do the same thing as my XJ. Another telling thing is to look at pictures of rolled WJs - they don't fold up the way an XJ or ZJ does.

Anyway, the OP was only interested in FSJs. I injected WJs to the thread and muddled the topic. Sorry.

 

[getlost4x4]

sorry, i got cornfused.:elkgrin:

i liked my FSJ, but there were some weaknesses that would not make me want to tow with it. the lack of breaks.

my FSJ had plenty of power. I rebuilt the 360 and added a nice cam to it. i surprised more then a few people when they tried to street race me in their pimped out honda's and V8 cars.:Wow1: And that was with stock gearing, and 31" tires.:victory:

the engines are pretty good and the GM TH400 is a very well built tranny.

 

[Root Moose]

I guess you could cure the brakes problem with some one ton axles. But that isn't gas-n-go. I'd also be wondering if an FSJ has enough weight to control an 8k lb trailer if things were to "go horribly wrong" in traffic.

 

[getlost4x4]

i wouldn't trust it. FSJ's don't weigh that much. my commander weighed in at 5500 lbs empty. just over 6000 with all my gear.:Wow1:

i don't think the FSJ would like that weight.

 

[Black Dog]

Basically what I was thinking when I started day dreaming about a Grand Wagoneer was that if I could toughen up the frame so it wouldn't crumple like a beer can and then strengthen everything else, add tranny cooler, put airbags and stuff, it might just accidentally do the job. I did some searching around on the airstream forums to see how others have faired with Wagoneers and they all pretty much did the same stuff I was thinking. I would prefer a diesel but I think an unleaded gas engine would probably suffice because we probably wouldn't be going on cross country trips with it or anything, maybe 250 miles each way max.

The Burb would do the trick and it is in our ball park price range, but being in San Francisco is kind of a turn off. There is a guy just up the highway that has a couple deuces for cheap and I suppose I could make one truck out of them if I had the facilities and the tools, but it wouldn't be very practical as a family vehicle though. My ideal perfect vehicle is actually a mid 70s Dodge W250 with the crew cab and Cummins but getting that specific really narrows down the selection. The Grand Wagoneer is my second choice.

How hard would it be to make a Frankentruck with the Cummins engine and the Waggy platform? It seems like there is plenty of room in the engine bay but you would never know if it fits until you try it.