A house on wheels?

[DaveInDenver]

Friends of ours have been full-timing for 5 years now. The entire time they have had a storage unit. Simply put, 5 years x 12 months x $120 (estimated) per is $7200, plus taxes. I wonder if they have $7200 of stuff stored...I'd guess not. The emotional value of these possessions is probably what keeps them paying.

Yeah, I would probably stick it in a storage unit and if I didn't use it that first year it would get sold! I was thinking rental spaces like renting a shop to do significant work (a personal example, I built an engine for my truck this winter). It's mostly that in my mind I hate paying a shop to do work that I know I could do, so the idea of stuffing all my things into an RV is attractive until I look at my garage and basement and think about all those tools...

 

[jayshapiro]

Options for a house on (or off) the road

KMR,

It's funny, we're in a very similar situation...

We also have a Landcruiser that my wife and I lived out of while exploring on trips around Asia. Fantastic for a few weeks, terrible for a year. (worse with 2 kids!)

...and, we also started looking at BIGGER vehicles like you're doing and worked our way through the list.

I went to tour the Unicat factory while I was in Germany and love the raised roof model. Those guys are amazingly professional, and the interiors put anything North American to shame. Avi Meyers at Unicat Americas is now selling his USA International-chassis model for about US$450k. The raising roof ones are apparently closer to $750k.

A ton of money, but still probably the best rigs I've seen.

We totally ruled out Earthroamer, for lot's of reasons. There's a pretty good discussion about the whole selection process here: http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/18205663/gotomsg/18304114.cfm#18304114


If you want something cheap and ready, then Carl Hunter has an existing BigFoot build-up on a Mitsubishi 4x4 chasis ready for sale. Might be a bit small for you though:

http://www.xor.org.uk/unimog/uksell/uksell.htm


For us, (and what might work for you) we're leaning towards a custom build "Super C" on a GMC Topkick 4x4 chassis. We've been talking to PonyXpress (now known as Silver Crown) who are more well known for their NASCAR racer style motorhomes.

But... they'll do everything custom for you, the Topkick's - if uprated with good tires, brush guards, etc -- can be pretty competent offroad. And the cabins can be as big as you want, from cozy to palatial.

You can see their stock offerings here:
http://www.ponyxp.net/motorhome.php

The biggest change we're going to have to make to their design is to angle the rear for a better departure angle.

Lastly, just to be completely frivulous, we've been toying around with one other idea... We know we need to mount the cabin on a floating (i.e. 3-point) chassis mount to build in some flex.

But, rather than using the standard 3-point style, we thought we might go with something a bit more fun, that will help get a better view / breeze at those scenic campsites at night:

:wings:


Cheers,

Jay.

 

[Christian P.]

JayShapiro,

do you have pictures of your LandCruiser? your website seems to be down at the moment...

tks

Christian

 

[KMR]

Jay,
Thanks for the new info, the links you provided are all things I have not come across yet and the thread you linked to had a bunch of other links I found very useful.
The pony express and a few other US companies linked to on rv.net are very interesting, it is nice to see that there are other options. However, I personally still think the only practical way to go is a cab over. The Fuso, in your case the Hino as well) just get rave reviews and that for sale link you posted is great, to small for this, but great.

I gotta ask, are you kidding? About the scissor lift that is, could be very cool, you sure would need a stable campsite.

 

[FusoFG]

There's some good stuff here as well:

http://www.truckconversion.net/

 

[jayshapiro]

The pony express and a few other US companies linked to on rv.net are very interesting, it is nice to see that there are other options. However, I personally still think the only practical way to go is a cab over. The Fuso, in your case the Hino as well) just get rave reviews and that for sale link you posted is great, to small for this, but great.

When I was drawing up the "requirements" for the chassis, the biggest items were:
- Global serviceability / dealer network for the engine & parts
- Under load rather than overload the weight capacity
- Full crew cab with 4 doors (for the kids)
- Must be 4x4 (obviously)

Based on those criteria we thought:

- The Hino has got the global network (Toyota) but the 4x4 is only sold in Australia, and no other country had seen them and would be willing to sell/service them.

- The Mitsubishi FG has got the global reach and is reliable, but as Doug and others have found out, it's pretty small for a full-time living arrangement. There is the FM that looks interesting, but I've yet to see anyone ACTUALLY convert one. (RUF claims they do, but no photos)

- While I was not a big fan of the GMC/FORD option, (the 6.0L diesel problems were a big part of our ruling out an earthroamer) the Medium Duty trucks (F-650, Topkick 6500) are available with the Caterpillar C7 engine, that can be serviced ANYWHERE, and Allison transmissions that are also in busses around the world. The GVWR's are huge too, and you can get a long chassis right from the factory without stretching it. Lastly, the crew cabs are huge and quite plush. Having the engine out front adds length, but I think the GMC has massive front wheel angles to gain back some of the turning circle loss. (53' for a 34ft circle - apparently)

- The last option was the International, which is what Unicat uses. We even considered the small one, which is pretty cool (MXT) - but they are only available with their own engines, and while they're dealer network is pretty good, it has some real holes in South America and Africa, whereas CAT is just everywhere.

Hope that helps...

I gotta ask, are you kidding? About the scissor lift that is, could be very cool, you sure would need a stable campsite.

HaHaha... I'm not entirely sure myself. It seems like just a crazy, flamboyant idea, but at the same time could actually be pretty cool. The cost/weight is not that bad (about 2,000lbs for everything) and it certainly would give a great view.

You just have to remember not to step outside...

Actually, on that note. I kind of like the idea of building in a fold-down deployable deck to sit on... available on the Unicat, the new HOST Motorcoach, and Rob Gray's WOT:

Cheers,
Jay.


PS - I'll post some Land Cruiser pics soon, my Blog site is down!

 

[FusoFG]

There is the FM that looks interesting, but I've yet to see anyone ACTUALLY convert one. (RUF claims they do, but no photos)

I think RUF has photos now.

 

[dhackney]

A primary litmus test is if you are staying in North America & Mexico. IMO, if you leave those markets global parts & service become #1 criteria. If you are staying here the domestics make a lot of sense.

Some of our decision matrix and the alternatives we considered are here:
http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index-alternatives.htm

Some links to research material & resources are here:
http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index-resources.htm

The Fuso FG is weight challenged, but if you keep it simple and don't load it down with all the hoo-haw stuff we put on it is very viable, as many have demonstrated.

Keep in mind that when you talk to circumnavigators before they leave it's all about the boat. If you talk to them when they get back it's all about the experiences. There are people out there in just about anything that will float. Don't get too hung up on the vehicle. It's getting out there that counts.

Doug

 

[KMR]

Fold down decks and lift up walls (like the WOT) are really cool, and relatively simple. In the end that would probably be a more practical solution. There would be a lot of opportunity for failure, mechanism getting stuck in the air, a little kid (or a drunken adult) stepping out in the night, leveling arms loose pressure overnight and you find your self tipping precariously to one side. If you are discussing an "expedition" vehicle, I think the general consensus would be to keep it as simple and reliable as possible, on the other hand if you are looking for a bling factor........ what could be cooler that a 3 story motor home. I guess it could help with security, be tough to break into.

David, I have been exploring your site after linking to it from your build thread. There is a ton of good info on there, thanks.

We certainly do not have the resources to be able to explore the world in something as large as what I am talking about, when I consider serviceability I am looking at north america. While "some day" we would love to drive around the globe, this line of thinking is not in regards to that goal. I still like a vehicle that is as small as can be for explorations.

So RUFs FM is a conversion? I was hopping that was a factory option. Perhaps a big honkin old reliable military truck is a better option for a NA platform.
When I referenced the Fuso, It was the FM, for a full time, this is my house, room for everything big truck I would have to agree that the FG is just to small. As a platform for what I would consider a "large" expedition vehicle, they are really cool, but a mid 80s vintage Unimog would give you about the same footprint with a larger payload capability and better off road capabilities. I think that decision would come down to, "..do I want to be comfortable on the pavement or on the trail?....)
But that is irrelevant.
I am talking about something HUGE, shower, washer/dryer, toilet, fresh and grey water storage, full kitchen, room for storage.....the WOT is about right, maybe a bit smaller (oh, and insulated)

 

[dhackney]

for a full time, this is my house, room for everything ... I am talking about something HUGE, shower, washer/dryer, toilet, fresh and grey water storage, full kitchen, room for storage.....the WOT is about right, maybe a bit smaller

To see how compact things can get and still be livable, go look at some 40-50' cruising sailboats (cruising in that market segment implies the ability to live on the boat full time as well as travel the world). You probably won't see washers and dryers until you get into the 45+ range. To get an idea of what boats to look at for that type of packaging and capabilities check out: http://www.hackneys.com/sail/ There are LOTS of families with 2+ kids out there on 40-50' boats. Plus pets.

A good test of this whole concept would be to rent the smallest camper you can find and live in it for a few weeks, even if you park it in your driveway and otherwise continue your lifestyle. If that one is too small, then you can try it again with another rental a little bigger. If you start with a 40' A pusher, then moving smaller will be painful. If you start with a 24' C, then a few more feet and amenities will be huge.

The biggest loss in terms of space in moving from a sailboat to a rig is the cockpit & deck area. That's where you spend most of your time unless the weather is miserable. You read up there, eat up there, socialize up there, watch the dolphins cavort up there, etc. A good EZ Up/Canopy/awning is the closest thing you can get in the RV world short of WOT's patio. We don't know how that loss is going to play out for our lifestyle yet, but our approach is that we will be outside most of the time. Our TC is not anywhere big enough for hanging out.

The loss of the washer & dryer is a big one. I have a personal aversion to laundromats, so I understand your desire there. In our previous travels overseas we've always found a local laundry if we wanted the luxury of someone else doing them, otherwise we wear travel clothes (ExOfficio type) that dry very quickly and we just did them in our bathroom. You really only need about one week's worth of clothes.

Beware that the ultra compact washer/dryer units commonly sold into the sailing & RV markets have ultra small capacities. As in one pair of jeans. And a load can take hours to dry. As in one pair of jeans. Also, the hot humidity created by the laundry system must be vented & sealed or it can wreak havoc. It is worth doing a lot of research on the sailing forums to find a brand & model that can do enough laundry in one load to make it all worthwhile.

I'm not from this truck world and have very little expertise here, but I guess for ultimate off-road access an ex DOD truck would probably make the best starting point. We chose the strategy of getting the FG as far as we thought it would go and then getting on the dirt bikes. For our planned travel to developing countries, based on our experience with 3rd world travel with our on/off road GS motorcycle, you spend a lot of time on what would not generally be called "roads" here, but are comparable to most semi-graded to not graded fire roads. The true MOG level roads were the very small minority and we'll use the dirt bikes for those.

For North America, keep in mind that you'll need to connect the dots between the ultimate off-road destinations. My wife took one look at a MOG in that context and said something along the lines of "no way." Except her version could not be repeated in the fine, polite company of this forum.

Doug

 

[KMR]

Excellent advice, and thank you for yet another link.
As I have been looking into this idea I keep returning to the fact that sailboats/cruisers probably have the same space concerns and a much higher level of quality support/products to address those space concerns. I am a complete stranger to the interior appointments of boats (except a tug boat that I was lucky to drive once that the family lived on, that was COOL) and I have been too busy to search much for web info.

When I travel I employ much the same laundry principle, usually I only have two changes of clothes, wash one pair in the sink/shower, put the other on while they dry. The ex-officio is probably the best I have found for this application (and their skivvies are simply unbeatable) But, travel is one thing, day to day life is another. Laundry becomes incredibly important when you have to address work clothes.
Just another reason why utilizing a mobile structure as a permanent, full time, non exploring home is impractical.
I look forward to exploring your sailing page and links, I think that will turn out to be very valuable information.

 

[haven]

bus plus

"Bus conversions can be pretty cool...
But, they can not leave the pavement AT ALL"

On my travels South America and Asia I've seen
inter-city buses traveling at insane speeds over
muddy and rutted roads we'd consider 4x4 tracks.
Tall tires and air suspension works pretty well
"off-road."

Not that you'd want to take your $1.5 million
Prevost into the boonies. I have friends who live
full-time in a bus. They tow a Sportsmobile van
for getaways into the hills.

Chip Haven

 

[OutbacKamper]

Here is a MAN expedition bus seen in a Perth, Australia camp ground in 2005. Note the winch with synthetic rope and the front sliders. I have more pics of this bus if anyone is interested.
Cheers
Mark

 

[dhackney]

I keep returning to the fact that sailboats/cruisers probably have the same space concerns and a much higher level of quality support/products to address those space concerns.

The ocean is an incredibly corrosive environment for everything, especially elctro-mechanical things. You can make a case that if something is truly a genuine marine item/system, it will deliver service in more trying circumstances and environments than non-marine items/systems.

There is a rule, however, that a coke is $1, a marine coke is $5 and an aviation coke is $25. The challenge is knowing when you need something really marine and when a regular coke will do.

I tried to build in as much "marine-ness" into the existing and new systems on our rig as possible. Most of that was a carry-over effect, since I knew more about the marine stuff and knew nothing about truck stuff. I knew the marine stuff would stand and deliver and I had no clue about what standard grade truck stuff would or could survive. I tried to avoid RV grade stuff at all costs.

I'm in favor of quantifying a rating system for rigs that would have different levels, perhaps:
RV..............Expedition..............Marine

In this context, marine would mean you could park your expedition rig just above the high tide mark and come back six months later and everything would still work. It would also mean that the things you put on it would have to actually deliver expedition quality service, i.e. rough terrain survivability, and not just be some butch bolt on thingy you found on a web site.

We could always add an aviation category for those who plan to strap a Saturn 5 booster rocket to an FG chassis. Not that I've considered that in the last few months or anything...

 

[jayshapiro]

3R Laundry

Doug,

I like your idea of locking himself in a small rental RV in the driveway in the rain. I'm sure that will be the source of many "innovations"

Speaking of innovation... While I agree that your 3R approach to laundry (Reduce, reuce, recycle) may be an effectif security system for your camper (the burglers can't get within 50ft of the stink) I just read about an interesting device that might work for you...

Wonder Wash

It's essentially a tiny, manual washer that works like a pressure cooker.

Could be good for your small, no-power travelling environment. I read about it in a camping magazine.

Cheers,
Jay.