gxv vs earthroamer

cwsqbm

Explorer
Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.
Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

Charlie

While the F550 may not be a Ford AZ product, there are 56 Ford dealers in Queensland alone according to the Ford Australia website.
 

howell_jd

Adventurer
"Around the World" ER #15

ER had a F550 with an engine problem break down in Russia that the owners eventually left and came home.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The Ford diesel is not a "world" engine like Mercedes or Fuso. It's made for the North America market. I believe the truck that broke had the Navistar diesel, but it doesn't seem to be one that was used outside North America.

Mercedes expects to help their truck owners anywhere in the world. Ford will wonder what the heck your doing in Oz with an F550. How are you going to run full engine diagnostics in Oz? Clearly a mechanic trained on the engine and tranny can fix the truck with the right tools by ordering parts air freight. But it's the "trained mechanic with tools" part that's the problem.

Realistically any truck could have a breakdown in a place where repair is difficult. These types of trips have to be viewed as an adventure. People who need to keep to a schedule should probably take a cruise.
But then there's the low sulfur diesel issue.......

...The "Around the World" (ATW) ER was still under warranty when it was driven through some austere locations - many of which were quite some distance from Ford dealers. Despite that condition, Ford was able to provide support - albeit with significant delays one might expect from such remote locations - and get the ATW ER back under way (to say "on the road" isn't exactly appropriate as there were cases where there was no road).

One of the significant break downs involved the high pressure oil pump (HPOP) which had a rupture of a line at the so-called STC (snap to connect) fitting - this flawed design was corrected by Ford during the span of multiple recalls affecting the 6.0L Powerstroke diesel (built by Navistar as the VT365 - which ironically did not suffer the frequency of failures that the Ford version did). The HPOP drives the fuel injectors to open and close unlike the 6.4L and other high pressure fuel "common-rail" engines. Today, an HPOP failure in a 6.0L doesn't create the confusion that it did in 2007 nor do myriad other issues involving fuel cleanliness (ULSD vs Low-sulfur diesel), proper oil filters and oil exchange intervals, etc., etc.,...

...In any case, the delay(s) in the journey of the ATW ER were expected based on the condition of the expedition (granted there were a few extended delays) and it was performed over a course of several years (May 2006 - Oct 2008) as well - while not necessarily planned, they were "built in" and certainly added flavor - you might say - to the pot.

My OASIS report (a Ford document used to record the servicing of recall and warranty work) has a few very "interesting" entries regarding the work on the ATW ER in Europe and Asia but no questions regarding "why" it wasn't in North America...no electronics failed as I recall but the failed parts weren't repairable - they had to be replaced.

Investment in a set of gauges and additional fluid filtration were among my early "modifications" to the truck. I believe an AutoEnginuity tool will be a special present I make to myself shortly to facilitate any future diagnosis and testing my truck will require (not quite as full-featured as Ford's Worldwide Diagnostic Tool or Integrated Diagnostic Software).

I think "every" vehicle has it's personality disorder(s). As an Engineer Officer, my Mercedes-built SEE trucks (Small Emplacement Excavator...technically known as the FLU-419) were subject to frequent breakage (it was a popular vehicle to the Infantryman looking for a crew-served weapon position) and there were significant delays associated with maintaining its operation (no fault to Mercedes perhaps...we worked those trucks HARD - just an observation of one of many "world" trucks).

Ultimately, deep pockets always facilitates remotely-located repairs. Sufficient supply of frequently broken items carried on-board also reduces time of delay during a trip - but this adds to the ceaselessly amended list of items to carry. I think a familiarity with the vehicle, careful planning and preparation, and an emergency fund (of both patience and CA$H) are beneficial elements for those who would embark upon a journey over "the road less travelled."

Jonathan
 

Cat Jockey

Observer
Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.

Not to hijack the thread, but the subject pertains to a decision for or against an Earthroamer or GXV based upon its platform.

You had to go 10 Km to find a Fuso/Merceds dealer to get a Mercedes air pressure sensor. That is 10Km further than you needed to go to get a Ford or International or Cummins air pressure sensor. Or Mercedes. You can get all of that stuff sitting in your pajamas in your house. Or in my house in Colorado. Or in Sub Saharan Africa, providing you have an internet connection.

Please, do not think I am in any way being insulting as we are all different and have different mindsets, but I personally would have tried to diagnosis the air pressure sensor myself. And if there were gaps in my knowledge and I was having problems in the diagnosis, I have the internet. INFORMATION at my finger tips. Don't discount that or the fact that you, instead of seeking out a a dealership 10 Km away, could have diagnosed your bad air pressure sensor yourself, with the help of the internet. And, quite frankly, I bet I can get in touch with a factory trained mechanic hanging out on a site like this faster than a Mitsi Fuso trained one.

(EDIT):
Maybe you did diagnosis it and were just referring to the ability to get parts quickly, off the shelf, instead of having them shipped, in which case you have a point. But, if I am overlanding and after 3 years of overlanding, I lose a sensor and have to have it shipped, oh well. I have to stay put for a few days, maybe, instead of being back on the road immediately. I'll take that.

Considering the price of a Unimog, that is a real, real, real expensive option. Suppose over the course of 3 years I am held up for a total 2 weeks waiting for parts to be shipped whereas with a Mercedes, I would have been able to avoid that downtime. How much does a brand new Unimog cost? How about a F550 chasis. Probably a $20,000 - $30,000 difference. That's $2000/day, at least, you would pay with a Unimog. If I am out traveling the world, I am not willing to pay $2000 to avoid being stranded for one day. I'll keep the $2000, enjoy my foreign surroundings and make camp. Just like I was planning to do - travel and hang out for days on end in certain spots. If a couple of those spots I hang out for a few days I don't get to choose, oh well.

My 28 y.o. 4x4 E350 Class 3 chassis, complete with ambulance body, I got for a p/u worth about $3500. A 28 y.o. Unimog chassis, with alot of miles is going to run me $35,000.

On top of that, something tells me that in 5 years, you will not have to drive 8000 Km. Maybe it will only be 4000 Km in 5 years. The world continues to shrink and Ford continues to establish itself globally. My rig won't hit South America for another 3 years. Any big jump across the pond would be 5 - 10 years out. How much more will Ford's global reach increase in the next 10 years?

Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

I wouldn't have it any other way. I understand that automotive companies spend millions on engineering, but that engineering is dominated by a different focus than I have. The best of that engineering, we do not have access to. You do not have access to the engineering in the UNiMogs Mercedes sends to the Paris-Dakkar Rally. Furhter, on huge governing factor on their engineering is not doing things the best possible way, but the way that will just get the job done with the least amount of material and cost.

I don't think anyone should shy away from an EarthRoamer or GXV because of the F550 platform. In fact, at this point, there is a lot of good words about the new Ford Diesel powerplant. Nor should anyone shy away from what I am doing - looking at a 25 year old Class 3 E350 dually chassis and saying, 'Well, it's a start. First, I'll take it all apart, beef up the frame, fit SWR F550 gear (6X6 IF I find competent engineering), and the best powerplant and tranny to suit my needs.

These are not rocket ships and manufacturers engineer to the lower limits for cost effectiveness. There is not a single mass produced chassis anywhere that cannot be improved upon for overlanding by a knucklehead such as myself.
 
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trailsurfer

Explorer
Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.
Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

Charlie

Yes, shipping in November.
 

GR8ADV

Explorer
Not to hijack the thread, but

haha, waaaaay to late :Wow1:

But actually I like this topic, of "What does it mean to be a "world vehicle"." Is it robustness, if so how do these stack up? Is it parts and service? If so then what does that really mean as the world is gettting very very small. And with information technology (internet etc), it may not matter where you are. Is the answer as simple as a diagnostic plug/hammer becomming as important as a 10mm wrench?

That being said, looking over the hi-tec of the 6.7 and the new ford transmission, can just anyone really work on these?

Interesting discussion. thanks
 
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dzzz

No, it's not robustness. It's a company supporting trucking worldwide. The expeditioner piggybacks on that infrastructure.

The big light-duty diesel is a North American-only phenomenon, AFAIK.
 

Bob599

Observer
world truck

I had the chance to speak with the ower of rally management services who specializes in US based Dakar Rally efforts. I asked why he would ship ford f 350s to AFrica rather than just snag a unimog or man truck locally? His answer was a suprise that He felt the f350 a more reliable and in the end more capable chasis. And the price was unbeatable. His team continues to ship these trucks to South America. He did pause to say how cool the Euro trucks were though
 

Doin_It

Adventurer
So you take your non native vehicle somewhere in the world and you break down, you end up doing like they do in several different African countries, where people import the latest greatest vehicle from Europe and have no way to fix it/maintain and keep it running.

The locals and you do the best to figure out whats going on. You talk to a mechanic in Europe, he figures what parts he should need, and when there are 2,3 4 or so vehicles not working he brings all the parts he needs and flys down and gets you all going and you all share in his costs/charges. Everyone is happy and away you all drive. Or you just bring him in and have it done for your truck and keep going.
 

dzzz

So you take your non native vehicle somewhere in the world and you break down, you end up doing like they do in several different African countries, where people import the latest greatest vehicle from Europe and have no way to fix it/maintain and keep it running.

The locals and you do the best to figure out whats going on. You talk to a mechanic in Europe, he figures what parts he should need, and when there are 2,3 4 or so vehicles not working he brings all the parts he needs and flys down and gets you all going and you all share in his costs/charges. Everyone is happy and away you all drive. Or you just bring him in and have it done for your truck and keep going.

Another option is shipping the badly broken vehicle to a place it can be repaired. The trouble with a Ford is how far it might have to be shipped?

One reason I like a popup camper design is that the vehicle can be shipped on a step deck (in the U.S.). Much over 10' requires more specialized trailers for shipping.

Obviously height restriction vary by country. Perhaps there's a standard in the EU. In less developed countries there are practical height restrictions.

A new vehicle (unless the engine is made by Navistar) is likely highly reliable. I read a blog of a guy who drove an older unimog to Alaska. He broke down 11 times. But hey! No computer! Sometimes the purist vehicles argument ignores the fact that most newer vehicles are much more reliable than older vehicles.
Go to Africa in a 20 year old vehicle and the vehicle will break down. Those people come back and are so proud of of having a vehicle without a computer.

Anyway, I'm a ford guy in the U.S., but I just wasn't comfortable with the pickup for international travel. I wouldn't do it in an antique big truck either. Give me a current Daimler commercial truck or a Toyota if going small.

I had the chance to speak with the ower of rally management services who specializes in US based Dakar Rally efforts. I asked why he would ship ford f 350s to AFrica rather than just snag a unimog or man truck locally? His answer was a suprise that He felt the f350 a more reliable and in the end more capable chasis. And the price was unbeatable. His team continues to ship these trucks to South America. He did pause to say how cool the Euro trucks were though

I expect Ford was a sponsor, other wise Toyota could have filled the roll with local support.
The trouble with "Euro Truck" is that it lumps old and new, obscure and common together. The African support for "Euro Truck" varies from zero to great.
 
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A big factor in one's ability to fix things in computerized trucks is having a diagnostic computer in the vehicle (example: Mercedes Star Diagnostic System). Also a set of engine sensors and a spare ECU.
I found a Star system on Ebay for ~$1200 in 2007. They are also available at
www.greebid.com
along with other vehicles' diagnostic systems.

Charlie
 

Kardec

New member
ER vs The World

As the owner of ER #1 and now #73 I have a couple of thoughts to add. I think that the U500 is a fantastic vehicle in every way. I drove one at the Portland Freightliner facility back when they were brand new to the US ... about the time when there were those silly ads suggesting that it was just sort of a bigger SUV that caused such a flap with environmentalists. As if suburban moms would ever buy a truck where you had to climb a ladder to the cab!

That, however, was/is one of the issues with all these vehicles. Height. And when you are on a slanted trail height becomes width. I love my Earthroamer but for getting into the back country the best vehicle is the smallest one you can stand. Light weight is good too. The initial concept for the Earthroamer, back when I first started talking with Bill about the truck he was going to build, was a bit smaller. His partner at the time, however, told us that we were probably the only single guys who would ever buy an ER ... the company had to appeal to the WAF (Wife Approval Factor) in order to get the customer to actually be willing to open their wallet as wide as necessary in order to buy one. I do not know that this was ultimately part of the official design criteria at ER but we did discuss it. They were and continue to be very successful in their design and are still responding to a lot of feedback from their customers.

When I drove the U500 I realized that the height of the thing was really the issue ... aside from this "world" business. I'm guessing they are great for North Africa, Australia, wide open places like that. An Earthroamer is as big a vehicle as I would want for getting into the mountains and forests of much of North America and, of course, in Europe either could get pretty crazy in some towns where width is an issue. My biggest problems have been branches, edging around rocks, and weight. Loading and unloading a very high vehicle can be trouble. I occasionally pack a lot of sound recording equipment and I know that getting all that in and out of a Unimog would be problematic and very slow ... and I'm 6'4". I believe that I was the one who insisted that the ER be tall enough inside for me to stand in my hiking boots!

In a completely different way the Earthroamer is "high profile" enough. It is so unique looking and attracts so much attention that I really would never want anything more and often wish I had something that looked less imposing. A couple of times I've been confronted by ER fans who got a bit belligerent, "I can't afford this ... What are you, some kind of big shot?" When that comes out of a person's mouth 3 minutes after I first met them my trouble sensor goes off big time. What I did to afford an ER is none of their business and I have no wife or kids to support. For awhile I handed out cards from a friend of mine who hired civilian contractors for jobs in Iraq ... that tended to shut up the jealous onlookers fairly fast. Now there's enough ERs out there, and mine is no longer one of the newer ones, so it's not so much of a problem. With a U500 I can't even imagine the reaction! Possibly better in a third world country where anyone with a new vehicle is sort of in the same boat ... no matter what the vehicle is.

I get a lot of people saying, "Wow, I'll bet that can go anywhere." ERs, especially the ones with the Continental Military Tire conversion, are pretty damn good off road. Good for a 25 foot long, 11 foot high, 7 foot wide 15,000 pound truck that costs as much as a house. They do not compare to a $1,500 Jeep CJ. How far into the back country you go has a lot to do with how much you are willing to damage your vehicle. With an ER, eighty percent of what holds you back off road is how much the thing costs. I'm in the "can barely afford it" category, so others may push their ER harder than I push mine. Size and weight really do hold you back in many circumstances ... stuck is BAD news in something this size. Stuck would be worse in a Unimog. Are they harder to get stuck? Undoubtedly. But stuck is not always a factor of bogged down or something of the sort.

On the "World Truck" issue I'm divided between two theories. Personally, I'll never take my ER out of North America. I'm happier traveling somewhere and then using whatever I can get locally, however, I see a divide between, very computerized, vehicle which probably requires less work and a simple non electronic machine like a Land Cruiser 78 or an old Defender which might require you or a local mechanic to fool with it ... but can still be repaired with baling wire and duct tape. I drove Land Cruisers and Defenders all over Australia and I love them. Not only are they easy to fix but they have room to work under the hood. Basically, anything over-complicated with a big electrical system and lots of plumbing is going to be a problem on a long hard trip. The Achilles heel of so many of these machines is the plumbing in cold weather and how long it takes to drain them ... you have to plan ahead.

I've lived in my ER for two months straight several times ... however, it gets pretty tight after just three days when I'm traveling with someone else! In general, it's great. I'm happy to have it. I'm glad its as fancy as it is because that's what lets me go two months while working (ie I can't look like a mountain man every day). I wouldn't get one if I had to do it over again because I probably wouldn't let myself spend the money ... but I'm very happy I did spend it when I did.

If I was driving around the world, through different countries, I'd probably build up the most reliable, least computerized vehicle I could get my head around. I'd try to not let it get bigger than a normal pick up. I'd try to stay under 10,000 pounds. I'd make it look MODEST, no matter how much money was actually spent on it. And I'd keep it simple, Simple, SIMPLE. One thing I have learned from traveling in places where a breakdown can kill you (Australia being one of them) is that no one uses heavily modified vehicles ... or particularly exotic vehicles. I'm guessing that has to do with reliability and ease of repair in small towns. I think that if you drive a big exotic expedition vehicle like an ER or a Uni into remote places that are far, far, from home you need to be someone who can afford to leave it if it breaks ... accepting that it may be a pilfered shell when you return. Hopefully, that won't happen but you need to accept that it might and plan accordingly.

With the plethora of vehicles around and 'just in time' inventories you are likely to have to wait for parts anywhere and everywhere. The constant revising of designs, especially with American vehicles (though Mercedes isn't as conservative and stable as they used to be), just makes things worse. I guess that's one of the reasons why you see LC 60 and 70 series, Defenders and Fusos in so many places around the world.
 

OVRLND

Adventurer, Overland Certified OC0017
Kardec,

First, welcome to ExPo.
Second, thank you for for your personal and informative post.
 
Welcome to Expo.
It occurs to me that with its' guaranteed parts/service (depending on whether the engine needs work or some exotic part like the transmission or portal boxes) at Freightliner and Detroit Diesel in North America, the U500 is the ONLY true "world vehicle" of the 4WD truck type. Other makes and other Mercedes models either don't have support in NA and/or have variable support in various other countries (MAN, Iveco, etc.). Yes, parts are available for 70 series LCs in NA, but not at very many places. although they are easier to work on than a U500!.

Charlie
 

Kardec

New member
Thanks!

This is a great forum, I've been checking into it for years without posting. I actually find myself much more concerned with the American market's tendency to destroy good 4x4 design than worrying about what vehicle is best absolutely everywhere. Market forces in the United States tend to cause nearly all manufacturers to chase the housewife demographic rather than creating the specialty vehicles needed for good overland travel in serious terrain. Simple vehicles with a minimum of dead reliable systems are extremely hard to find ... no news for anyone on this site. My cousin is a minor exec at VW in Europe and when we get together he's a font of information about what is going on in the auto biz. We always spend some time bemoaning the fact that the world needs the modern equivalent of the old VW van/pick up. Something cheap, well built, easy to fix, will run on cruddy fuel, get good gas mileage, can carry a lot of people or junk without being too large, can take a hell of a beating and be a stable enough design to make parts supply easy and common. I don't need one ... I imagine no one here really needs one ... but the rest of the world does. I wonder what will be coming out of India or China in the next few years.

I've heard stories from other ER owners of traveling various places around the world. It seems like it's not a big deal if you're well maintained and trouble shot before leaving the US. I'm not sure how far anyone pushes the capabilities of the vehicle (any vehicle) on international trips anyway ... it seems like the perfect way to spend your free time broken down in a spot that might be interesting for a day or two but isn't the place you'd really like to be for two weeks waiting for parts or repairs. I blew a turbo connection early on in the first ER rally and ended up sitting in Page, AZ for days after everyone else had gone home waiting for Ford to get a replacement to me ("just in time" inventory!). I had plenty of opportunity to imagine the same situation taking place in Honduras or Mexico. My dad always said, "Adventure" is a Romantic Word for Trouble. Page wasn't all that romantic ... but, thank god, it wasn't as much trouble as Honduras would have been! I think of some of the places I've been broken down and shudder ... just glad I didn't have an ER full of stuff to worry about.
 

dzzz

........ Height. And when you are on a slanted trail height becomes width. ..................

The U500 is about 10' tall. What's the ER? While GVX doesn't build a pop-up, AFAIK, unicat does. With the cab over, versus the engine forward design of the F550, it's easy to do a long cabin on the U500.

I agree about height being an issue. Some of these big truck campers go over 13' with the AC. I'm nervous about branches at 10'. I don't know how people explore remote roads in a 13' tall vehicle. I expect there's a pole saw and prayer involved.

Of course both the U500 and F550 are more limited off road than a jeep or toyota.

IMO the U500 is inherently more space efficient than an american pickup based vehicle. The advantage of an F550 is the second row of seats.

The idea of people being more offended or impressed or whatever by a U500 versus an F550 based vehicle seems a bit strange to me. Most people don't notice and don't care. People interested in 4x4 smile and enjoy seeing an unusual vehicle. No big deal.
 

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