What about the DEF system when you travel to Third World countries?

[SRUPike]

What would removing the DPF/Urea/EGR do to the engine? Like with the 6.7 Scorpion sold in the states is it the same as what is sold in Mexico minus the emissions control equipment.

I know:
1. It voids any semblance of a Warrenty
2. It's for Off-Road Use only ( ie illegal)

Does it really do anything to harm the engine?

 

[EricBirk]

it does freeze/ get too cold to work. Our new truck has a 5 or so gallon tank and lasts about 3 days at 1000 rpm. we work in the oil feild and can spend many days on a rig sometimes running our hydraulics and generator at a set RPM. sometimes our trucks sit work for months stright with just a few mile trip every week or so to move to another well site. I have been up to north dakota and herd many complaining about runing in limp mode for long periords because of frozen fluid in their pickup trucks. Most places do not see 20 or 30 below on a consistant basis like we do though.

I have heard of the same thing up here in Alberta. We have a new Powerstroke service truck that sees use all winter long, driving back and forth from wellsites to Edmonton. Sometimes it sits in our yard for a week without running. We hit -30°C quite a few times this winter, and it was even -45°C with windchill on the few trips I went on! Truck fired, when plugged in, and never once have we had an issue with the DEF *Fingers crossed*

 

[apexcamper]

OK, I don't get any of this at all. The EPA has lost its mind by imposing all this DEF and ULSD stuff on us. In Europe a big twin turbo Diesel Jag gets better gas mileage than a Prius, and while it definitely makes more emissions per gallon, it uses far fewer gallons...net result is LESS emissions.

Lots of people are talking about how to bypass the DEF, or about getting older trucks that don't require ULSD, only because of these new rules. Sports Mobile no longer offers a diesel option on their trucks and they state that since ULSD is not available outside the US and Canada, they wanted to sell a vehicle that was a global traveler (video of interview here). The end result of the EPA rule has become "drink twice as much gas as a diesel" just because they wanted less emissions from a diesel.

This thread started with Earthroamer trucks. Now maybe I am on a significantly lower budget than most, but a quarter of a million dollars is ALOT to pay for a truck that I can't ship to Russia and drive through Mongolia for a month, or even drive the ice road between Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk.

I am preparing to build my own global traveler, and one of the big things I have learned from this whole forum is how much simplicity and reliability have been stressed. To that end I am actually going with a non-turbo, mechanically injected, air cooled diesel. Very little to go wrong and I can fuel it from even the lowest quality diesel fuel from the depths of Africa.

Just seems to me that even a crappy low compression gas engine running on crappy third world gas would be better than hoping you can have family ship you some DEF or praying your particle filter that is backing up will get you another 100 miles down the road because the supposed ULSD you bought at a middle of nowhere shop in the Altar desert wasn't actually ULSD.

 

[cwsqbm]

OK, I don't get any of this at all. The EPA has lost its mind by imposing all this DEF and ULSD stuff on us. In Europe a big twin turbo Diesel Jag gets better gas mileage than a Prius, and while it definitely makes more emissions per gallon, it uses far fewer gallons...net result is LESS emissions.

Lots of people are talking about how to bypass the DEF, or about getting older trucks that don't require ULSD, only because of these new rules. Sports Mobile no longer offers a diesel option on their trucks and they state that since ULSD is not available outside the US and Canada, they wanted to sell a vehicle that was a global traveler (video of interview here). The end result of the EPA rule has become "drink twice as much gas as a diesel" just because they wanted less emissions from a diesel.

This thread started with Earthroamer trucks. Now maybe I am on a significantly lower budget than most, but a quarter of a million dollars is ALOT to pay for a truck that I can't ship to Russia and drive through Mongolia for a month, or even drive the ice road between Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk.

I am preparing to build my own global traveler, and one of the big things I have learned from this whole forum is how much simplicity and reliability have been stressed. To that end I am actually going with a non-turbo, mechanically injected, air cooled diesel. Very little to go wrong and I can fuel it from even the lowest quality diesel fuel from the depths of Africa.

Just seems to me that even a crappy low compression gas engine running on crappy third world gas would be better than hoping you can have family ship you some DEF or praying your particle filter that is backing up will get you another 100 miles down the road because the supposed ULSD you bought at a middle of nowhere shop in the Altar desert wasn't actually ULSD.

To say the EPA has lost its mind and then bring up Europe like its doing something better is missing the point. Europe has roughly the same rules, and uses DEF and ULSD too now.

Sportsmobile stopped offering the diesel in the Ford van because Ford stopped offering the diesel, partly because its not putting an International diesel in its trucks anymore, but more because doesn't pass current emission rules. Sportsmobile is still happy to build you a diesel van - in a Sprinter or a Chevy (DEF needed for both). Most Sportsmobiles (or Earthroamers for that matter) aren't used as global travelers. Its a bigger issue for a company like GXV or Unicat that caters to the global traveler. And how many vehicles does GXV or Unicat build per year? Not enough to get anyone to look for a solution other than using older trucks.

 

[apexcamper]

You are right cwsqbm;

If I spent that much money on a truck, I would keep it for years and put hundreds of thousands of miles on it. I assumed everyone had the same agenda. It just seemed to me that even if they don't want to be global travelers now, you would want something that leaves the option.

I was also blinded by the fact that everyone runs a diesel in Europe, but not everyone meets the Euro-6 standards which aren't technically enforced till 2013

My intended purpose for an overlander will be going to see some of the seriously off-the-grid places, and while ULSD and DEF are growing in distribution and popularity, a vehicle that is electronically forced to "limp" through the Okavango delta because I don't have a couple of gallons of DEF on me is not acceptable.

I know I will probably take some flak for that, and will inevitably have to change my tune if I want to drive my truck in in anything close to a first world country, but till then...K.I.S.S.

 

[colodak]

a little info on DEF, there are you tube videos and websites of people putting water in DEF tanks and running for thousands of miles with no problems, however, it does fully void any and all warranties and I didn't tell you this.

 

[sg1]

Since I will go on an extended trip to Africa and later on in South America in a few weeks I did some research on the various modern diesel engines and their problems with the different diesel qualities. It helped that I know a few engineers at Mercedes with experience in the relevant countries (Sprinter Division and Military Vehicles Dep.) and a few travelers who had actual experience with modern diesels in 3rd world countries. What I learned in a nutshell:
- Electronically managed common rail diesel do not cause exceptional problems if good diesel filters (with water separator!) are used.
- DPF ( self cleaning diesel particulate filter) seem to survive in most cases high sulphur diesel for at least several 1,000 miles (the travelers I talked to had up to 30,000 miles without problems), but my friends at Mercedes told me that I should not count on more troublefree miles. High altitude and bad diesel in combination seem to guarantee immediate problems however. All travelers with DPF I contacted or whose blogs I found had problems in the Andes in South America. To me that makes sense because my "unfiltered" diesels where always smoking like steam engines above 9,000 ft. (bad combustion because of lack of oxygen) and if all that black smoke goes in a filter...
MAN supposedly offers removal kits for "out of area" vehicles (travelers), Bremach offers such a kit, Mercedes does not sell these kits to Americans or Europeans (only to the army).
- DEF (adblue) is not available in any 3rd world country I know of.
For my trip I selected a truck without DPF or DEF. I still got a new vehicle (I do not want to go on a multi year trip with a used car) without these gadgets. Just on thing less to worry about.
SG

 

[doug720]

In my very humble opinion...You would be nuts to take one of these electronic diesels out of the dealer network! An around the world journey requires a vehicle and critical drive train components that can repaired with basic tools, and one that a simple (not so simple!) sensor can not leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere.

I am a long time owner of diesels and drive a Ford electronic diesel as DD. I can also tell you the many times I have had these electronic diesels towed in for repairs because of simple, stupid sensors failing. A cam/cranks sensor fails and the engine stops dead immediately! I know to carry one of these at all times as a spare. I have had valve cover gaskets fail where the electrical connection to the electric injectors inside the valve cover short out...engine stops! First time this happened it took it took one of the largest Ford trucks dealers in Los Angeles 5 days to figure out what happened and then only after I had a friend a t CAT tell them how to test the system.

In addition, do you know that to service most/many engine components on the new Fords the body must be removed? That Ford dealers have a special lift for this? That after the warranty ends or for repairs not covered under warranty a dealer charges approximately $2000.00 just to remove the body? Think how many systems must be disconnected to do this lift, cooling, steering, HVAC, shifting, electronics, etc, etc, etc,...

Ask a over the road trucker how many times he has been down due to a electrical engine sensor(s). I work with excavation equipment, due to emissions, equipment is know going to electronic engines and the results are terrible! You won't be seeing any 20 year old electronic controlled diesel equipment like the o0ld mechanical stuff. Just like you won't find many 20+ year old cars in the future. Electrics fail = machine stops!

I have a boat with twin mechanical Cumin's 5.9's, on my dock is a gentleman with CAT C9's, an electric diesel. NIGHTMARE! Water, especially saltwater and electrical does not work well together.

Again, IMVHO, new electronic diesels are ok in the USA, but beyond that, you would be crazy. No one will have the tools or knowledge to work on these components and parts...have you tried to order parts from the dealers lately?

MANN I'm sure is better, and is well known outside of the US, but...

My LandCruiser has an all mechanical diesel and I like that.

I'm sure others may disagree, but this is my opinion based on my experience.


Doug

 

[sg1]

As a former mining excecutive I have travelled to many countries in Africa, Central- and Southamerica and Asia (Near-, Middle- and Far East). The cars, vans and light trucks sold there were essentially the same as in Europe and Australia. With the exception of the Toyota Land Cruiser HZJ78/79, all new light diesel vehicles also in these countries ( I did not research heavy trucks) have common rail engines. They are locally sold and serviced. I have been e.g. to Ford and Toyota dealers in Syria or Tansania that were about as well equipped as a dealer in Toronto. The Sprinter for excample is manufactured in China, Vietnam, South Africa and Argentina and a few other places with essentially identical engines (some lack DPF/DEF). When I had to decide whether to travel in a 20 year old truck without electronics or a new vehicle with electronics I choose the modern one. The only alternative would have been the Landcruiser HZJ ( no electronics that is essential for operation) but it is unfortunately too small to live in for a long time with the creature comfort we like.
SG

 

[doug720]

sg1,

You may be right on getting parts and service in some parts of the world and in some brands of vehicles, but, in the vast majority of areas I've traveled, basic is better.

I've not traveled by vehicle beyond Alaska to the North and Panama to the South, in between and outside most major cities, you have issues diagnosing the problem (Scanners. etc), getting the parts and finding someone with the tools and knowledge to make the repairs.

But, if the budget allows, anything is possible. Just fly in the part and mechanic. LOL.

If traveling on less than a mega budget, simple is better, and knowing how to fix and maintain yourself is best.

Doug

 

[haven]

Welcome to ExPo, SG1! Please tell us what modern diesel vehicle you decided to buy!

 

[charlieaarons]

I agree with the simpler is better mantra. But i had little choice looking for a NA legal factory 4WD with 33K GVW that was also worldwide serviceable, which is why I ended up with a 2005 Unimog.
No DPF, no EGR; I carry Mercedes Star Diagnostic System + lots of spare parts including a set of sensors for engine and an ECU. And a WIS (workshop manual) and EPC (parts disk).
I have found that at least in Australia Mercedes/Fuso dealers will work on the vehicle and can order parts. Hopefully the same (hopefully I won't have to find out!) in SE Asia, China Russia. Europe should be no problem.

Charlie


Charlie

 

[sg1]

Thanks for the welcome. I have joined the forum a few months ago. I am retired and worked for a long time as a mining executive. We live in Canada and Europe. In Fall we will ship our truck to South Africa to explore Southern and Eastern Africa (we know already West and North Africa), after that we ship it to South America and then we will see. My first posts and a description of my camper are in the "Other Expedition Camper" section http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/53430-Ford-AWD-Camper gives you some details on my camper. It is based on a European Ford Transit chassis with awd (manual or automatic), the last available vehicle of this class without DPF/DEF. It is definitely not a hard core expedition vehicle, but after over 30 years of traveling (business and private) in all continents with the exception of Antarctica (somehow never made it there, YET...) I have come the conclusion that there are very few regions where you need a heavy duty expedition vehicle. On my 2nd Sahara Crossing on old abandoned Foreign Legion routes in the 80s I had a stock (even tires) Isuzu Trooper and we were accompanied by a stock VW Syncro and we had no major problem. Most of the time a heavy duty expedition vehicle is just cumbersome, heavy, uncomfortable and expensive, but FUN...
Sorry, it got a bit long.
SG

 

[rblackwell]

Def/dpf

The issue for modern USA diesels in other (3rd world ?) countries is not just DEF it is also the lack of ULSD.

Prior to the 2011 model year the solution was to fit a DPF delete kit and after market tuner. I did that to our Chevy 2008 duramax for a trip through central and south america.
Though one needs to be careful not to run such a modified vehicle on US highways. That is illegal!!

For 2011 model year trucks I understand (but have not tried it) that the DPF delete kits that can be purchased for the Ford 6.7 actually disable the use of DEF as well as disable the DPF regen cycle and EGR action.

Of course the simpler solution is to buy an ER with one of the 6.0 PSD engines.
Or a 6.4 PSD with a DPF delete.

Rob Blackwell
www.whiteacorn.com

 

[rblackwell]

Sorry about the delay in replying - I did not have notifications setup
No did nothing except remove the DPF (left the CAT, EGR) and put in a new program with a tuner.
If I did it again I would consider a CAT delete also. For a Ford I have since learned that EGR removal would also be good.