Is Bigger Better?

[Ozarker]

Dwh, a van is certainly a consideration, I had a 2wd Ram years ago when the kids were growing up and camped in it. Not decked out like yours, I removed the center captains chairs and we were on the small bed in back with the kids on the floor. Days past, I don't think one like I had would work today. I took it off road in the woods and never had a problem.

Haven, very nice rig and I don't consider that small. So far it looks like my "requirements" might need to be refined as I'm sure that doesn't get 15 MPG. Maybe I should have asked is micro better than mid size......LOL

I saw in one of the links that the Alaskan had a head and it was shown, I believe, at 25 inches wide at the end of the bed by the door, is that about standard? Nice!

What about a more simplified set up, not backpacking, but say a camp stove, ice chest, solar/propane water heater-shower, folddown bed.....anything more simplified that might be lighter and require less vehicle, thereby offering that 15 mpg? Or, is what has been discussed considered the small side?

 

[dwh]

Dwh, a van is certainly a consideration,

I wasn't suggesting a van.

I was saying that a van has little elbow room. Fine for one person, for more than one though, it's bloody tight.

In other words; If you value elbow room, then bigger is better. If you don't mind a sardine can, then a "camper" -like my van- is fine.

 

[Ozarker]

Then I would think the approach to the issue would be to decide just howmuch real elbow room one really needs as opposed to wants.

The physical aspects of the necessary equipment and the nice gadgets is also a consideration. Physicaly, how much room or capacity is required.

From that the type of travel or use would be decided and the unit be built, purchased and or modified to meet the specific needs.

Sounds easy, but for the newby it is not so easy. The only way to know how much room you really need to stay sain is probably to experience the confines of your living unit. I have backpacked and slithered into a bivey and I know what that's like. I know I want a queen size bed. If I have 3 to 4 feet above my bed I'll probably not suffer from claustrophobia.

That's roughly 5x6x4 or 120 cubic feet. I've been considering the space needed for each function and shared space or areas that are multi-functional. This design approach seems to have been solved decades ago by others and in commercial units that are available, so there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

dwh,your van provides alot of room as you have limited set up, just spin around from the driver's seat and you're in your kitchen area, or whatever. That has a great benefit if the is a storm and you pull over, it also alows you to go int a stealth camping mode if you're not at a camping destination yet.

That fantastic example posted by Haven while not so stealthy provides the same benefits but is much larger and probably requires a credit card at the fuel pump. Bigger is going to be expensive, this summer I can see fuel being a dollar a mile with a large heavy duty truck, maybe more.

So back to the question,or request really, can you justify a bigger unit? What is the real cost of a rig like that shown by Haven as opposed to a 4x4 van or a pick up pulling a trailer, or a slide in on a smaller truck. Say you buy a late model and use it for three years, put 30 or 40K miles on it and then sell it. Where are you? Or take a smaller less expensive unit and just use it and salvage it years later, does a smaller unit with no resale value fill the bill?

 

[Ozarker]

Yes, I went with a smaller camper. That way I can have more of the items I need to be self dependent. If you stay on the normal roads, there is always a WalMart or another store near by. If you have just traveled two day to get somewhere off the beaten path, You are two days from help. A 4500 lb unit takes up alot of your weight just to have a dry bath.

Are you saying that a large unit is not that much more functional if you have to take a spit bath out of a bowl of water?

And aren't the smaller units more capable in getting to off road areas?

 

[dwh]

That fantastic example posted by Haven while not so stealthy provides the same benefits but is much larger and probably requires a credit card at the fuel pump. Bigger is going to be expensive, this summer I can see fuel being a dollar a mile with a large heavy duty truck, maybe more.

So back to the question,or request really, can you justify a bigger unit? What is the real cost of a rig like that shown by Haven as opposed to a 4x4 van or a pick up pulling a trailer, or a slide in on a smaller truck. Say you buy a late model and use it for three years, put 30 or 40K miles on it and then sell it. Where are you? Or take a smaller less expensive unit and just use it and salvage it years later, does a smaller unit with no resale value fill the bill?

Well...justification is a tricky thing. Financially, you are taking a loss. If you use the rig for business, then you may be able to justify a large rig as easily as a small one.

If you aren't using it for business, then justification is a matter of "How much money are you willing to lose?" That's a totally personal preference.


For me personally, I've always hated losing money on vehicles. (I've also always been utterly revolted by the idea of paying interest for personal, i.e. non-business-related expenses. If I can't write off the interest, then I don't want to pay it.) I've had a lot of vehicles, but that's because ever since high school I've made a hobby of finding good deals, fixing them up (doing my own wrenching), using them for a while and then selling them, (usually) for what I have into them. Sometimes I even make a little profit.

But when you factor in the time I have invested, I actually haven't made a profit. I've still taken a loss, even if it is only some of my "spare" time. But that's justifiable as a "hobby". I could just as easily have spent that same time whittling or stamp collecting or watching sports. I simply chose a hobby that saves me having to pay mechanic's bills.

In my mind, I can justify the loss of the time a whole lot easier than justifying the monetary loss of "buy new, sell used" (a.k.a., buy high, sell low).

But that's just me...some people don't like wrenching and would prefer to lose wages they've earned rather than spare time. Personal preference. It's a loss either way.

Also, Total Cost of Ownership is more than just miles per gallon. My old beater camper van has a 460 engine. An engine renowned for averaging 10mpg uphill or down, loaded or not. But when you consider that I paid two hundred dollars for the truck, and had it rolling down the road with (more or less) everything working, registered and insured for less than 2 grand - including generator and motorcycle on the back - the TCO (dollars per mile), even with the big block engine and gas at $5/gallon, is FAR less than a brand new, or even fairly new, 30mpg econo-box.

It's not shiny, and I do have to do a bit of wrenching here and there, but I don't care about shine on an "outback" vehicle, and wrenching is my hobby anyway...so what the hell.

Under those same terms, I could justify a larger vehicle - if I needed one. Right now it's just me so I don't need anything bigger.

 

[boblynch]

Smaller is better

Smaller is always better. The question is how small works for your situation. In my case I wanted dedicated bunk beds, a north-south oriented bed for the wife and I, and enough storage to be self sufficient for 30+ days. We ended up with the rig posted by Chip. My clan lives outside the rig for the most part. The external storage boxes allow us to keep almost everything other than food and first aid outside, which allows the inside to be clutter free (which makes it seem bigger). The only time we're inside is to sleep, eat on cold days, and play cards when it rains too hard to hang out under the awning.

If I had 2 travelers I'd use the same basic design, but scale back. No bunks, extended cab vs. crew cab, not add the second water tank, etc. I would keep the side door model, flatbed, and maximize outside storage boxes. Depending on weight I might go with a 350 and skip the lift and SRW conversion.

 

[gm4x4lover]

There is a balance of to small and to big. We have a real lite 10.5 slide in camper. It is about perfect in size for us (2 adults and 3 kids). It gets taken off road, nothing major but dispersed camp sites and forest service roads. We use it to take the off road rigs in the mountains for a few nights once a month, Moab, and road trips. We like the size of the dinette, the kitchen/fridge is in the front of the camper, and the only way I was authorized to buy one was if it had a bathroom. I wanted a smaller pop up camper but could not find a floor plan that i liked with the bathroom so we settled for a hard sided one. Our first trip out was to be to moab for the cruise moab pre run. But the camper wasnt ready yet. So we borrowed my father in laws pop up tc (6.5 foot hall mark). After that trip I was really glad that we had bought a larger slide in tc. I dont think after camper in ours for the last couple of years we could down grade to a smaller one. The extra water capacity, storage, the bathroom, the fridge and counter space, head room, isle room as well and the pop up was noisier. The biggest difference to me was going to be mpg's and it didnt change at all.

My dry weight is 1870, loaded about 2600-2900 lbs depending how far we are going and what we are doing. I also pull a 12k trailer behind it most of the time. I look at the bigger campers 11+ feet and really like the floor plans and the slide out. Lance has a really nice one with a side entry door and fold down tent in the back. But I cant fathom putting something equal weight of my jeep, 4k+lbs, in the bed. The other trade off is price.

Slide in campers new no matter what the size are ungodly expensive new compared to a pull behind campers. Even used they are pricey comparatively. I can see staying with a slide if you have specific need. But the small pull behinds give more options and better mileage.

 

[Ozarker]

Yes, a bathroom is a big thing here too, doubt we get it off the bat. We have a little off road outing plammed for May in Arkansas, don't know, the state may wash away by then if it doesn't blow away!

While it's only one night out, using a tent so far, we will try to imagine other needs vs. wants.

I'm thinking trying to find a topper for the truck and putting in a platform, it would at least be shelter in bad weather, lower than a slide in and less wind resistance for better MPG. This might be a temporary fix.

Still looking for opinions. Just as with the yachting crowd, many will suggest going with the smallest boat that fits the need. Putting money in the gas tank will take you further than having all your money in a big rig.

Admittedly, much of this is over a bathroom, cooking is not a big deal, a couple burners will usually do, couple that with a grill and camp fire, that would cook more than we would eat. So the cooking part is no such a big issue as space to prepare even uncooked foods and keep provisions. The second issue behind the bath is the bed, but a queen size blow up should do fine, a couple sleeping bags and some real sheets and blankets will do. Haul a couple lawn chairs and an ice cooler or two, and water, seems that's about it. Everything else is for safety or the vehicle.

 

[dzzz]

In my experience the people in the huge rigs are not as happy as the people in vans. Not sure about the cause/effect, however.
Places like the Oregon state parks are a great reason not to go huge. Although all truck campers fit state parks AFAIK.
I was more concerned about height than length. Long is inconvenient, but high is restricting.

If I had 2 travelers I'd use the same basic design, but scale back. No bunks, extended cab vs. crew cab, not add the second water tank, etc. I would keep the side door model, flatbed, and maximize outside storage boxes. Depending on weight I might go with a 350 and skip the lift and SRW conversion.

+1 on that

F350 SRW stock is a great starting point. Lifts are a mistake. I wouldn't do flatbed on a first truck camper. Just get a truck and a camper and go.

 

[Ozarker]

Can't count all the vehicles I've owned. Thought I might slow down on this round. I have an F 150, if it's grab a camper and go, I'll try to keep the one I have. I have several vehicles that I should probably consolidate,but the F 150 is a keeper unless I find something much better. F350, that's pretty big! That's why I was a sking about...is bigger better....would it be significantly better to travel, and put more in the tank?

Just thinking, can't go faster than the speed limit, modest off roading seems to be accomplished by almost any truck, the smaller, the better itgoes between the trees or on the trails. I don't plan to do much in the wide open desert areas, but would like to go through some of it.

 

[Quill]

I think you have to right down the max you need and the min you can live with then find the balance. Some people camp with just a tarp, then you can go up to a bus size. Usually the larger the more time you spend inside. If you can get by with the equipment of a tear drop then you don't need a lot.

 

[gm4x4lover]

My ideal set up with out my kids ( just the 2 of us) would be a ext cab 3/4 ton diesel (most likely a f350 for the solid axle and cab0 space) long bed. I would choose a 9'ish slide in pop up and do a out door cassette toilet in a tent. It would allow me to be light, maneuverable, inexpensive, still have all the amenities that I have now minus the extra sleeping room.

 

[Ozarker]

Okay, maybe that's the way to approach it, that's pretty much what one would do to provision a yacht as well. So, for the small land yacht:

Basic Load:
10 gal. fuel, 2 cans
Provisions for one week for two, 40 lbs 2'X3'x1.5' high as to volume
20 gal. of water, 4 cans
50 lbs of ice or equivalent ice packs
Two medium ice chests
2 burner propane stove
5 small propane bottles or equiv. external bottle
1 lg. plastic sink 1 sm. tub and marine hand water pump
small BBQ grill, 10 lb bag of charcoal, 1 can lighter fluid
folding picknic table
two folding chairs
Queen size bed
matress cover, two sets of sheets, 2 light blankets, one heavy blanket
4 pillows w/2 cases each
2 sleeping bags
propane heater
Porta pottie, bags or chemical.
chain saw, lube and oil
ax, shovel, come-a-long wench
20' garden hose
aux 12 V battery
1 vehicle spare, jack/tool
small tool kit
tow strap
small box fan, 12 V. fan
rifle bag and gear 20 lbs
small fisihing box, two rod/reels
two battery lanterns
Clothes and personal items, size of one Army foot locker
2 life jackets
2 paddles
1 16' canoe
1 10x12 tarp
100' rope
50' para cord
computer
Icom 706 and 2 HTs
CB
spot light and flash light


Probably forgot something on the basics.

Now a small gen set and window A/C unit would be nice.
Thoughts on packing it all. Actually I think I can get all that in a F-150 ext cab with a tanaue cover or shell. But, gas cans stored next to a matress might not be a good thing, could go under a platform I guess.


If I hook up a 5X8+ trailer, no problem! Would like to take the dual sport bike! Obviously the canoe goes on top.

As to living space, that's a subjective matter. At the minimum a camper top or tear drop trailer. A tent can be included, but cold weather will need another heater.

Guess to answer that I would have to get all the stuff and pack it several times and just experiment to see what the laod would be....actually do it!

What other items would you take?

Would this be packed so tight that you'd have to empty too much to get at the chain saw, for example....always a consideration in packing and what probable use there will be.

 

[deminimis]

We did the hike into wilderness areas thing with back packs and llamas for years, then Jeep camping, then van camping (Sportsmobile), now big camper and truck combo. That has worked fine, including Baja, but even then, with the kids growing like weeds, its cramped at night. Thought of different goals and needs (considered adding an Autohome to the top of the camper, building a removable bunk so the kids didn't have to share the small dinette bed, towing an extremely small tear drop, perhaps an enclosed trailer...). Wanted to be able to haul our buggy or bikes securely, when desired, but not rely too heavily on a trailer for camping as we have a boat that we take on trips too (in lieu of bikes/buggy). Decided we needed to add an enclosed trailer into the mix to haul dirt bikes as we do that a lot (especially now that the kids' are racing) and to double as additional sleeping space for the kids when available (let them fight until their little hearts are content somewhere other than in the camper). Given the weakness of the standard trailers I looked at, decided to go with a composite race trailer. Pretty dang bombproof, but even then, its shortcomings are evident when it comes to off-road use (long and low). With some mods, I can do a little better ground clearance-wise, but its still a "road train", as my buddy calls it. Basically, if you are lucky enough to know exactly what the future holds, then you'll pick the right combo straight from the get-go. If, however, you don't have a crystal ball, you might expect to take a couple different whacks at the problem until you find the perfect fit. Suppose I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Bigger isn't necessarily better by any means, but sometimes it just works better than the alternatives. For us, IF we didn't have a big boat, or horses, or hay that needed to be hauled on a semi-regular basis, the Sportsmobile setup, with an enclosed trailer, would have been about perfect.

However, even with a big pickup and camper combo, if you don't overload your truck with too big a camper, and build the suspension adequately, you can get to most places you need to get to.

 

[Ozarker]

Nice set up! You mentioned knowing what the future holds, great point. Looking forward seems like knowing where I'll be traveling might help too. Generally, and most often, the mid west, Mo, Il, Ky, Tn. Ok, Ar, maybe further south, La, gulf area, out to San Antonio. But heading north, probablt the east, Poconos. So far nothing too tuff. Maybe Az, Ca, Co. so that's the mountains. Not really sure, but I would think a VW could go generally in those most traveled areas as the tourists do. But how far off the beaten path?

Probably need to do some more research and arm chair travels to find out what is really out there and what is generally required and if I really want to go there, I doubt I'll be fording a three foot river a mile up river, doubt I'd cross one, but might have to, that kind of thinking. So, I think a pretty stock vehicle should do it for me, but maybe some slight mod if necessary.

For really getting off road, I have the bike. So I guess it's a mild, not a wild set up....and a 350 doesn't seem like the MPG I'd be very happy with, so guess that narrows it down even smaller.

Some here are using VWs, Subarus and saw something on a volvo wagon. Now that's small. But I think that's too small to actually go for any extended period...don't know...and it wouldn't have a bathroom!