Start a fight

apexcamper

Carefully scripted chaos
Actually not trying to start a fight, but looking for experience-based pros and cons for medium vs large expedition campers.

The GXV and UNICAT trucks are on much larger chassis and have much higher gross weights than the Earthroamer or Earthcruiser. On paper it is easy to compare the two, but what seems like a "pro" in the driveway can be a "con" what you actually get a week into the desert.

This isn't about build quality or fit and finish, I am focusing here on weights and dimensions.

See my other post for more info
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/62878-4x4-Heavy-Truck-or-Medium-Duty
 

howell_jd

Adventurer
My experience - with a family of three adults and one child (albeit within the continental US and not worldwide exploration) - is that bigger is better for peace of mind and comfort. Your own list of pro v. con is the definitive justification for your choice of course. I am happy to provide my own insight based on my own perspective though to assist in the multitude of things to consider.

I will qualify my observations with the disclosure that my experience is based on two platforms only: RoadTrek (small to be sure...not medium) and EarthRoamer (medium by your comparison here although bigger than the larger of your alternatives in the other post).

Dimensions - as a US Army officer I am accostomed to having less and making-do with less when "camping" (are the ExPo wives still giving negative credit for "camping" references? Ha ha) but when it comes to my wife, our daughter, and my wife's mother...well, "less" is not a welcome addition let's say. Everything about the RoadTrek was a compromise and each simple task involved several shuffle-actions because of the limited space. I am 5'9" tall and my head was at the ceiling making me crouch. The passage-way was narrow even for my 175-lb frame...forget trying to pass one another even squashing against the corridor sides. The RT definitely fit in more places. It was 19' long where the ER is 25' long. The RT was just over 8' tall while the ER is just under 11' tall. We truly have space for all four of us in the ER to sleep - and more importantly - comfortably. To prepare to sleep in the RT involved conversion of the dinette for the primary bed and conversion of the forward seats into short cots - too short even for my wife at 5'6" although my wife's mother who is just over 5' tall did fit...I suspect she didn't complain but she does prefer the twin sized bed in the ER (I've invested in improving the cushions for the ER twin bed). With the RT in sleep mode, you aren't going ANYWHERE. With the ER in sleep mode, I have driven down the highway allowing my wife and daughter to rest "upstairs" ... yes, this is perhaps a risk but I don't plan on setting the cruise control to make a cup of coffee while I'm driving at least. Ha ha.

Weight - Rather than focus on the GVWR which no one should exceed without a great deal of forethought and caution, I will focus on MASS for stability. Having camped in several BIG storms in both of the campers there is no question that unless you like the pitching and rolling of a seafaring voyage when you are trying to sleep - bigger is better, especially with a frightened child. MASS also provides durability - there is no doubt that there are some strong and light materials but substantially thicker woodwork is more durable than thinner woodwork when comparing similar materials. Certainly more of anything adds to that GVWR so a bigger truck handles it better or at least provides an option for "a week into the desert" as you put it. Also, the bigger truck (the ER) provides me more options in storing MASS lower (than the RT). That warning provided by flight attendants to "use caution when opening the overhead bins as items may shift during flight" is very true for any overhead storage; the RT was notorious with its oddly shaped storage areas for expelling its contents especially after a few days of depleting the stockage levels...how to keep it tightly stored as items were consumed was a challenge in the RT, less so for the ER as I am able to use secondary containers in more regular shaped storage areas and those containers are easily secured.

I really like the look of the EarthCruiser as a smaller alternative to the ER or a larger alternative to the RT. Unfortunately it doesn't have the same degree of "pass-thru" capability that really sold me on both the RT and the ER. For some this isn't as big of a deal...it's a significant element for my family. Even so, I think the EarthCruiser looks great! And you can't go wrong with ER or GXV for that matter.

Another item to consider is drive-ability...my wife had a hard time with the RT and is still intimidated with the idea of driving the ER but she is able to handle both with some degree of reservation. I think the ER is easier to drive even though it is larger because it has the engine farther forward...I've driven cab-forward too and the handling is different - perhaps this is more a preference but in making a shift between vehicles (such as from a Jeep Cherokee or Chrysler Town&Country to the RT/ER) the difference in handling/style of driving was relevant for me.

Good luck on you selection! I hope we get to hear more on your search.

Jonathan
 

apexcamper

Carefully scripted chaos
Fellow soldier, outstanding
Did 13 years in the Army myself...now work for the DoD...they had me in Hawaii for several years...overlanding HELL!!! I got myself transfered to Europe and I am in expedition mecca, they wont be able to get rid of me.

I totally agree that larger=more space and more space is better. I have always thought the Earthroamers were incredible vehicles and are almost the exact size of the low end of my two choices. I guess the real info I want is if there has ever been a situation where you thought you needed something bigger.

My real delima;
I understand that as size goes up, the extremes of terrain one can traverse go down, that I can handle. What I want to get is the smallest truck that will handle my family comfortably(since smaller usually means less shipping, less tolls, more places it can go).

Could you do two weeks in the ER (about as long as my average trip)? how about three weeks?...could you carry enough supplies for 4 for a 10000 mile round trip in the ER (aside from fuel of course)?

Obviously both sizes of truck have merits and flaws, just wanting a ball park realistic expectation on a truck ER sized from someone who has one, so I can weight that against something bigger and decide.
 

howell_jd

Adventurer
We've done two weeks several times. Obviously travel in the US is different than travel in Europe - and elsewhere for that matter, that's why travel is so much fun I guess - as a result we're able to replenish some supplies like milk and other BEvERages that don't last two weeks when we refuel during exploration. We carry bicycles too in order to expand adventure opportunities. The size of the ER has worked nicely for us. I strongly support ER!

Jonathan
 

Kardec

New member
I've owned an ER probably longer than anyone, though many of my fellow ER mates know much more about various aspects of the machine and Overlanding in it. I have traveled a lot but have not driven an ER internationally and I probably wouldn't, so take that into consideration. Here's my, very personal, take on the general subject of size, etc. --

Weight is your enemy on and off road. I liked hearing about Jonathan Howell's comment about being in a storm. It took me back to one afternoon where it felt like I was in a sailing ship rather than an RV. But most of the time weight means reduced mileage and compromises on harsh terrain. I've run several different sets of tires and it has only been since I got the the Continental MPT 81s and requisite air suspension that I actually liked driving the ER. Weight severely limits the tires you can use, freeway speeds, off road ability, tire availability, etc. It all depends on the compromises you want to make. The following is not really a comment on your situation but normally I tell people that unless they KNOW they want a vehicle this big and heavy as the ER they should do whatever it takes to stay under 10,000 lbs. The number of choices, everything from trails to tires, you have under 10k makes it a different world.

Exterior dimensions. Weight aside, I very often find places I can't go. Trees limit height, sometimes rocks too. In traversing a slope your height makes you wider. Width is an issue but I can easily see the widest point on the ER, I can't see the top. Surprisingly, I've never run into an off road length issue, probably because height and width already limited me ... driving around town and parking, of course, length is an issue. I occasionally have to meet people in downtown Seattle when I'm in WA with the ER. I dread it. Coil sprung ER #43 turns much tighter than the old leaf sprung ER #1 so I'm always happy about that ... truly the Ford chassis is pretty maneuverable, it's not a Sprinter but it's okay.

Interior dimensions. I have lived in the ER for over a month many times. No problems, no upper limit. With someone else I max out at a week ... but that's just me. Major Howell travels with his whole family! The ER is very comfortable for me, a load of sound recording equipment, props, and a wardrobe that covers a multitude of jobs from back woods recording to meeting with business executives. I wish it had a bigger bathroom sink. That's it.

There are places for really big off road trucks. North Africa. Australia. A great deal of North America. But a number of the places you mention on your other thread may have wide open spaces but also have medieval style cities designed in ancient times and often for defense. I feel crowded driving what we'd call a mid sized car in most of Europe. The cities are cramped, many of the country roads are small, trees, overhanging second floors, mountain switchbacks all make me like something smallish, whatever that means. You may face similar issues. I assume you don't want to completely restrict yourself to the countryside. The last thing you want to do is get stuck because of size in a crowded city where no one speaks your language. Backing up through an Indian street could be a nightmare. A recommendation, bring a bike. You can park at a distance and scout your way in closer without becoming an antisocial road blocker. The nice thing about a lot of non US locations is that there is limited suburbia so stopping outside town and walking in is an option ... I'll bet it wouldn't be uncommon to find a farmer who'd let you park over night in places where there are no formal arrangements. Farmers the world over are equipment geeks.

A big note that touches on size but covers other things too -- other cultures do not take vehicle safety as seriously as we do. They'll drive like maniacs, hook a tow from their bicycle, chase a soccer ball beneath the wheels of a backing semi. Be careful. They will risk their necks in ways we'd never consider then hold you responsible. Good visibility if you're going to be around big groups of people or in traffic ... it's a must.

My biggest issue, one that has created more trouble than anything, is too much and too complicated plumbing. I'm constantly hitting cold weather, having to blow my tanks and pipes and it's HARD to do once the weather turns on you. I was racing across the country headed back to Colorado back before we really knew the limits of what the ER could handle and froze (broke) some stuff. I stopped by ER and we fixed it and upgraded some stuff, the weather look good ... next stop LA. By the time I hit the San Luis Valley it was getting really cold again, Wolf Creek was closed ... that night it was 30 below. Diesel wouldn't flow, the hot water tank didn't like to be empty back in those days and we hadn't figured out that we should use coolant shut offs to it yet. No heat. I was so cold and shivering so hard I had to urinate over and over. It was nuts. Obviously, I broke it all again. I just turned and headed back to ER and stayed there until we'd reconfigured the whole system so it would really blow clear and so that the water heater didn't have engine heat issues ... we streamlined the diesel system with Y rather than T connectors and bigger lines. Water and Cold ... you want it simple and easy to fix.

I guess the rule is be as big and complicated as you need to be while going as small and simple as you can.

Good Luck!
 

Kardec

New member
Hell, you're in Germany, much of my advice on small streets and other things is probably completely unneeded ... Always one more thing to say, however.

Plan to leave your vehicle behind at some point in its life. Good locks, luggage or boxes to ship valuables, etc. I've had to do this several times when emergencies put me on a plane rather than driving home ... and this is just living and driving in the US. Stuff happens, plans go awry.

Cheers!
 

haven

Expedition Leader
Being in Europe, you're just days away from the biggest adventure travel expo on the planet, the Albenteuer and Allrad show in Bad Kissingen from June 23-26. Here you'll be able to view and climb around in camping vehicles of all types, and talk with fellow enthusiasts. You should be able to answer your question in a couple of hours of walking around.

Here's the thread about the show:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...in-Bad-Kissengen-Ger.-Overland-largest-show!?

Being in Europe also has the advantage of a great market for used camping vehicles. You could purchase a vehicle, use it for a year, and then sell it without a huge loss.
 

apexcamper

Carefully scripted chaos
Kardec - Thanks so much, every time I chat with someone I come across things I hadn't even thought about.

I clearly see many benefits to the ER-sized truck. I am starting to think the concept of keeping things less than 5 tons is the way to go.

This makes me wonder; if one can be very comfortable in a truck at around 9000lbs, it would be foolish to give up maneuverability, visibility, and off-road capability just to have something bigger.
That goes completely against the fact that Unicat, Action Mobile, and GXV sell well. I don't know the exact figures but they seem to be comparable numbers to the ER and Earthcruiser lines. This means that many people feel the extra size has extra merit...I keep waiting/expecting the GXV and Unicat guys to chime in and drop some great "pro size" arguments.

I am stressing over this issue a little only because I will be building the camper myself. I am ready to begin, but dont want to get half way through my build and realize I have way to much, or way not enough truck.

Haven - I will absolutely be at the Albenteuer and Allrad show...undomesticated equines could not prevent my attendance.
 
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sg1

Adventurer
Hi,
as a former mining company executive responsible for exploration and project development I have travelled over many years to a lot of countries. I can assure you size does matter. It starts with narrow roads especially in the mountains, small parking spaces in the cities and weight restrictions on bridges (especially in 3rd world countries). Other excamples are restrictions in African National or Wildlife Parks for heavy vehicles (sometimes they are not allowed to enter, at the very least they pay enormous entrance fees) or significantly higher road or bridge tolls. If you get stuck or break down with a heavy vehicle it is a lot more difficult (and expensive) to get a large tow truck for heavy vehicles in 3rd world countries. With a smaller vehicle usually local help is sufficient to get you moving again. Usually local trucks or buses outside the main highways tend to be in the 5-7t range in Latinamerica or Africa (mostly these mid size Asian trucks). For international travel, I would not go much bigger than that.
Apexcamper have fun on the Abenteuer Allrad, I will not miss it either.
SG
 

Kardec

New member
I shudder to think of getting my ER so stuck it requires a call for help! I can just imagine 15,000 lbs mired in a trail and the size of the rig required to pull me out ... or the rig and the cat it would require to pull me out. At 200 plus pounds, even changing a tire can turn into an overnight adventure.

Big gives you more all weather capacity, batteries to run AC if you're that desperate, room to move around within a heated space rather than doing half your living AROUND rather than inside the rig like you'd do with something smaller. Sportsmobile vs ER is a good analogy, you can sleep your family in a SM but you are really going to be on top of one and other ... like in a tent. It'll be easy to heat because it's small but if someone needs to use the john everyone will be watching, or at least too close for comfort. In the ER you have the next step up and that's great but it's too big to be a daily driver and not as maneuverable as the smaller vehicle, getting a Econoline sized machine unstuck is a job many do every day ... getting an ER unstuck is an adventure. In my opinion, MOST of the ER's (or any many ton vehicle) off road capability should be used to just not get stuck, if you are alone and you challenge it's capabilities you'd better have a lot of time on your hands.

I suspect that the Unicat crowd goes very specific places, wide open desert like places. I saw a couple when I lived in Australia and they seemed perfect (except for the $8.50/gal fuel), an apartment-like habitat in a desert moonscape, capable of dealing with sand, washouts, mud holes and the like. But I saw them far from the places I lived, the narrow streets of Sydney and the over grown mass of the Queensland rain forest. The Unicats were all in the outback where brush is often just ten feet high and buildings are scarce ... it's like Texas but nearly the size of the US.

The more I think about it, the more I think you could use something BETWEEN the size of a Sportsmobile and an ER. Some of the smaller, older Unicats were like this. Not super wide and, though tallish, a pop up design. When I was looking at pop up campers before the ER came into my life I liked the fact that while the pop up isn't insulated so well when it's popped it IS pretty good when it's not and though cramped, many of them are still useful closed ... in a cold weather emergency.

The bigger vehicle is going to be more fun to live out of. The smaller vehicle could play more of a role in the rest of your life ... you might use it for more things when not on the big trip. Maybe ... I guess the big vehicle could become the guest wing to your house!

Though I mentioned it before I'm going to say the words off road tire selection and speed rating. I'll add that you really want to have enough breaking capacity and then some. Some of this is an argument for smaller, though the F550 ER stops better for it's weight than my 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton pickups did.

If you are running big heavy tires be sure that the tolerances on the wheel to lugs aren't too tight. I had Alcoa over the road wheels on the ER and they were so tight that changing a 140 lb tire/wheel was a disaster yet now I run the +/- 200lb Hendrickson/Continental tire/wheel combo and, amazingly, you can get them on and off the lugs much easier because the spec is ever so slightly looser. You actually don't have to put as much physical effort into it. Best to think of stuff like this ahead of time ... I sure didn't but it can save you time and money. Heavier is more awkward in more ways than one.
 
Kardec;904763I had Alcoa over the road wheels on the ER and they were so tight that changing a 140 lb tire/wheel was a disaster yet now I run the +/- 200lb Hendrickson/Continental tire/wheel combo and said:
Have you had any front wheel bearing problems yet? The stock tire and wheel on the front of a F550 is about 90 lbs and has a different back spacing than your >200 lb wheel/tire combo you have now.
At least my Unimog came from the factory designed for 340 lb 395/85R20 XZLs.
Are you aware of any front wheel bearing problems in ERs with the Continentals?

Charlie
 
None "yet"

Have you had any front wheel bearing problems yet?

The "yet" seems to imply that if you haven't "yet", you probably will.

With 108 EarthRoamer XV-LT's on the road, some F-450's but most F-550's, some Super Cabs but most Crew Cabs, ranging in model year from 2003 through 2011, that have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles over every type of terrain imaginable, through Iceland, Europe, Russia, Mongolia, Japan, Australia, Mexico and Central America (yes, more EarthRoamers have traveled outside of the US than most of our competitors have built in total) and all over the backroads and trails of the US and North America...

There have been no wheel bearing failures.

(Yet ;))
 
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howell_jd

Adventurer
...I actually drive my ER every day...

Mine is a 2005 with 76,000-miles and no wheel bearing issues.

Jonathan
 

Kardec

New member
Right. Me neither.

There's no question that the U500 is a fantastically rugged vehicle but so far so good on the ER. Also I know some and know OF some people who have driven very heavy wheel tire combos on Ford 350s for many hundreds of thousands of miles ... not 200lbs but well beyond your average "off roader" set up ... so far I haven't heard any complaints from them either.

Though at some point even the bearings on a skateboard will wear out.

At one point I did consider building a vehicle on a Hummer H1 with an ambulance back. The lower profile ambulance back. It would have been pretty compact, though wide and no place to stand up. They are awkward and make a statement that I'm not sure is broadly accepted but they are REALLY effective off road. I believe TV producer Robert Halmi went on a long expedition across Africa using a pair of them back in the 1990s. I was surprised as there were few in civilian hands at the time and they couldn't have had much support but he seemed happy with them.
 

evans.family

New member
Big truck - small truck?

I have considered carefully the "Big, heavy V Small, light" question and decided to address all options/compromises that my budget would allow, therefore I have just finished building a 10 ton 4X4 camper (ex military, simple, easy to repair and get spare parts, Engine will run 3rd world fuel!) with storage for a 4x4 quad bike also a 4m inflatable boat and 20hp outboard.

Our plan is to travel in comfort on Asphalt and rough roads in the camper, go off roading with my quad bike and explore rivers etc in the boat. If things work the way I have planned at the end of a tough day exploring I will have a shower, enjoy a gin and tonic with ice, sleep in a comfortable bed and if its hot put on the aircon. I will also have the choice to be sociable and meet the locals or shut the windows and doors and have some privacy - very important in some parts of the world!
We are also equipped for cold weather - the Arctic circle is on our to visit list.

If you are interested in this type of vehicle contact Ed Perry at overland vehicles http://www.overlandvehicles.co/chassis-selection.php

Good Luck
 

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