Reality check for diesel-systemed truck camper

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
If the truck doesn't leave North America, I'd say get over your propane aversion - there are just too many advantages for your situation.

After the regulator it's low pressure, and anyone with a propane system should be doing a full leak test as part of annual inspection anyway. In my Class B camper van, all the propane lines are copper with flare fittings, except for one rubber flex line from the regulator to the copper. That line is under the truck and tucked up nicely. First thing I did was replace that line with a new one, replace the old regulator with a new two-stage, apply a wrench to all the copper flare fittings to check for tightness and then pressurize the system and spray soapy water on every connection to check for leaks (the truck was sitting for 15 years when I bought it, so I was very concerned about leaks). No leaks.

Nor will there BE any leaks, if the lines are properly strapped down and secured. Copper lines don't just magically erode a hole and start leaking at low pressure. Nor do flare fittings loosen up if they are properly supported. The only real worry is that one rubber flex line, which is new and more or less protected. Still, I do keep an eye on it.


Cooking with gas is definitely better, except for condensation. So get a hood over the stove that vents to the outside.


Standard RV furnaces are horrible for dry camping - they eat propane and battery power like candy. But a catalytic heater (preferably vented if condensation is an issue - and it WILL be an issue when it's cold out) doesn't use any power and is much more efficient on propane. My truck has a 12k btu Suburban heater, and A) it's way too much heat for a van, and B) I never use it anyway because it's such a pig. I'm probably going to replace it with either a 3k btu vented cat heater, or more likely a Propex, which is very popular with the Westy crowd:

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4349

One of the dealers here on ExPo is a Propex dealer. Unfortunately, I can't remember offhand which dealer it is.


Heating water with propane is quick and reasonably efficient. My truck has a Suburban 3 gallon water heater with a pilot light - and every time I forget to turn off the pilot before I drive, it blows out (not a leak issue - it's got a thermocouple just like any gas water heater). I definitely want to replace it with one that has electronic ignition so I can just flip a switch inside to fire it up instead of having to light the pilot every time I need hot water.

As a bonus, Suburban makes a 6 gallon unit that fits the same cutout, but is about 3 inches deeper than the one I have (plenty of room for it), that not only has electronic ignition, but also has a 120v electric heating element for use with shore power or generator. That I want.


As for the generator, this is an extremely sexy setup:

1000i.GIF


A 1000w Yamaha Inverter gen with a propane conversion. They do other sizes too if you needed a bigger gen or want electric start. U.S. Carb's setup doesn't void the warranty and you can still run it on gasoline if you need to:

http://www.yamaha-propane-natural-gas-generators.com/

Propane is awesome for generators, because it doesn't gum up the carb if it's left sitting for a while (gasoline starts going bad very quickly) and doesn't have the issue that diesel gens sometimes have of carbon buildup if they are run for extended periods at less than 50% load.

And good luck finding ANY generator quieter, lighter and more fuel efficient than a Yamaha inverter gen. All you need is a quick-connect hose to your camper's propane system and you're good to go.


As for the fridge...meh. I'm not really a fan of ammonia absorption fridges for mobile use. I think a good efficient DC fridge is far superior. But my camper does have a Norcold 323 3-way fridge and it works so I haven't bothered to replace it. It has no electronic control board to fail, but also has no thermostat. The temp is controlled by the pilot light. Pilot light on high, and the fridge is colder, pilot on low, and the fridge isn't as cold.

I generally run it on low pilot, since it tends to freeze things if I run it on high. On low, using nothing but the fridge and cooking 3 squares a day, 5 gallons of propane lasts about 5-6 weeks. On high, fridge and stove will use up 5 gallons in about 3 weeks.


My truck has a horizontal tank permanently mounted under the floor next to the frame. If I had my druthers, I'd have a pair of standard 5g vertical tanks and an RV auto-switchover regulator in a compartment. Then I could just take out whichever tank was empty and have it filled...or trade it in, but trade-in is a horrible deal. 30 bucks for 5g of propane! I can get 5g at my local propane yard for 11 bucks.

Unfortunately, with a van there is no place for a propane compartment, so I'm stuck with what I've got. I am on the lookout for a larger 11g tank though. It'll fit and last twice as long between fill-ups (or the same amount of time if I use a small propane heater).


Okay, you lose the heat exchange between engine and camper. Yea well...every rig is a set of compromises.


The only other issue, is engine pre-heat. Glue one of these to the oil pan and run it either from the aux battery (they make them in AC or DC) or the generator:

http://www.padheaters.com/description.html

Problem solved. And very little complexity.

While you're at it, get one for the engine battery as well. It's only 60 watts:

http://www.padheaters.com/battery_heater.html

And don't forget a heated fuel filter.
 
Last edited:

Photomike

White Turtle Adventures & Photography
Heating water with propane is quick and reasonably efficient. My truck has a Suburban 3 gallon water heater with a pilot light - and every time I forget to turn off the pilot before I drive, it blows out (not a leak issue - it's got a thermocouple just like any gas water heater). I definitely want to replace it with one that has electronic ignition so I can just flip a switch inside to fire it up instead of having to light the pilot every time I need hot water.

Before you upgrade having a pilot is great in the cold as just that little flame will keep your tank from freezing. I have an Atwood like yours and I hate lighting it in the wind, but in the fall and early winter it is nice to keep the tank from freezing.
 

grizzlyj

Tea pot tester
Nor will there BE any leaks, if the lines are properly strapped down and secured. Copper lines don't just magically erode a hole and start leaking at low pressure.

I got myself a little hung up about copper gas lines a while back until someone pointed out it the same stuff thats works just fine every time you put you foot on the brakes, lines fixed to the axle, bounced around, covered in crud and how often you you check those compared to how often you rely on them?!

:)
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Before you upgrade having a pilot is great in the cold as just that little flame will keep your tank from freezing. I have an Atwood like yours and I hate lighting it in the wind, but in the fall and early winter it is nice to keep the tank from freezing.

Hmmm...good point.

But I suppose I could just leave the unit turned on and let it cycle on/off as needed to maintain temp. It'll use more propane that way than the pilot though.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I got myself a little hung up about copper gas lines a while back until someone pointed out it the same stuff thats works just fine every time you put you foot on the brakes, lines fixed to the axle, bounced around, covered in crud and how often you you check those compared to how often you rely on them?!

:)

Well, not exactly the same. Brake (and fuel, and auto trans cooler) lines are generally double-wall steel.

But yea, the flare fittings on brake lines typically handle hundreds of thousands of cycles of pressure up over 1000 psi and rarely leak.
 

Tony LEE

International Grey Nomad
but at the moment you don't seem to be able to refill in southern France, Spain or Morocco, maybe more?

Unless you have a fixed tank that can be refilled from the autogas pumps, most LPG is only available in swap tanks. France, you can get a 13kg swap tank for as little as 1 Euro consignment. Throw it away when you leave the country. Spain is difficult because generally need a residential address to sign up for a tank. Portugal not a problem. Morocco - just buy a tank for a few Dihram and swap it. Autogas pumps aren't in Iceland or Morocco (except for a couple of isolated suppliers) but readily available over most of Europe.

Back to the OP. My OKA camper box was just an empty shell when I bought it so I could start from scratch. Webasto diesel cooktop and a Webasto water heater, calorifier, mixing valves supplying warm water for the shower and another for hotter water for the sink. Tied in with the engine coolant system, mainly so the calorifier will be hot at the end of the day. Don't bother turning the engine circuit on or off but have the valve cracked all the time. This provides extra load on the heater and reduces the cycling. Do have a header tank but it could be bigger. Heating is by a fan heater. As supplied it was far too noisy so I replaced the fans with ultra-quiet computer ones. No noise, but not enough air either so compromise needed.
Also 512Ah of battery plus 360W solar panels, MPPT controller and an batteery to battery 3 stage charger between the alternator and the house batteries.

In the process of scrapping the current box and replacing it with a full-height GRP/foam/GRP sandwich panel and all of the equipment will be swapped over to the new box.

Only major change will be the addition of heating coils in the floor of the dining table to supplement the fan heater plus an extra 200W panel.

No propane and no generator and no mains hookup. Worked perfectly over 4 months in the deserts here (down to freezing at night sometimes) so there is no need to change anything - except the box so I can stand up - and enjoy the hot shower inside instead of outside.
 

locrwln

Expedition Leader
To the OP, I too think diesel fired appliances are sexy and would think it would best for simplification (at a certain level); however, I have over 50k miles and 9 years using the propane appliances in my Lance camper. Stove, heater and refrigerator, none of them have ever given me any problems. I have camped/traveled from sea level (California, Texas, Baja and everything in between) to 10k feet in eastern Nevada to Prudhoe Bay, Alaska (again and everything in between). I have never has a problem with the propane system. I fill up the tanks and it is worry free. I have gotten two weeks of use (or more) out of the two five gallon tanks.

Buy a solid camper and enjoy it now, or spend a lot of time/money trying to make/build something that you may not be able to enjoy for quite some time.

Jack
 

dzzz

Hi

Is altitude an issue? Most diesel burners require an extra "bit" to burn cleanly above 1000m, and I don't know how cleanly or up to what height?
Our camper has a D5WS Eberspacher without any variability for height, and 3 weeks at 910m sooted it up nicely. It has burnt for a night or two at 2000m+ without needing cleaning though. It has ally screws that aren't really meaty enough to get the furnace apart once the fans off, and are not something you would think of to take as spares until you need a chisel to undo them!



:)

The newer webasto 3900 air top has automatic altitude adjustment, as well as continuously variable burner. But it's 2-3x the price of their entry level unit. For an expo camper where a hot air system is wanted it seems ideal. Handling altitude with hot water units is more complicated, however.
The entry level diesel hot air units are no more expensive than the better propane units such a Propex. Diesel heat while carrying propane for cooking can be fairly economical. A propane tank used just for cooking lasts a long time.
It's tricky to nail down prices on webasto diesel heaters. Be sure to include a muffler when getting prices.
Catalytic propane heaters are popular for their efficiency.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Wouldn't bet on it and which one would you buy?

That said, I have often thought that the hot ticket would be a wood lined double chamber with tie down straps and a hose that ended in a metal tube and some hose clamps. That way, when one bottle empties, you replace it with a local bottle and a section of local hose. You would have to have a way to be sure that you could safely clamp the hose as this would be upstream of your regulator and thus on the high pressure side.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Wouldn't bet on it and which one would you buy?

That said, I have often thought that the hot ticket would be a wood lined double chamber with tie down straps and a hose that ended in a metal tube and some hose clamps. That way, when one bottle empties, you replace it with a local bottle and a section of local hose. You would have to have a way to be sure that you could safely clamp the hose as this would be upstream of your regulator and thus on the high pressure side.


That's more or less what Stephan Stewart ended up with. One semi-permanent refillable bottle, and one throwaway that he could replace with whatever was in use locally. The hose to the throwaway was just a cut off hose with a hose clamp, so he could fit whatever sort of adapter was needed.

After traveling much of the world, he ended up with a whole bunch of adapters and regulators, none of which, as he notes on his web site, worked in Central or South America:

gas07.jpg



http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm
 
To the OP, I too think diesel fired appliances are sexy and would think it would best for simplification (at a certain level); however, I have over 50k miles and 9 years using the propane appliances in my Lance camper. Stove, heater and refrigerator, none of them have ever given me any problems. I have camped/traveled from sea level (California, Texas, Baja and everything in between) to 10k feet in eastern Nevada to Prudhoe Bay, Alaska (again and everything in between). I have never has a problem with the propane system. I fill up the tanks and it is worry free. I have gotten two weeks of use (or more) out of the two five gallon tanks.

Buy a solid camper and enjoy it now, or spend a lot of time/money trying to make/build something that you may not be able to enjoy for quite some time.

Jack

That's fine if you travel in one country. I'm glad your system works well for you. But struggle with filling your tanks in different countries (every 2 weeks!) and adapting new tanks to your system and you will see why people shy away from propane heating and worry about the "gas problem". That's what this whole thread is about.

Charlie
 

Photomike

White Turtle Adventures & Photography
That's fine if you travel in one country. I'm glad your system works well for you. But struggle with filling your tanks in different countries (every 2 weeks!) and adapting new tanks to your system and you will see why people shy away from propane heating and worry about the "gas problem". That's what this whole thread is about.

Charlie

Actually the original post mentioned nothing about travel;

Purpose: This vehicle will be built over the next 6 mos-year and used for regular two week excursions, frequently in cold weather (snowboarding trips). It will probably be regularly moved while on trips (daily) and primarily for dry camping/boondocking. When we're not camping, it needs to "haul stuff" and be used regularly as a primary vehicle (without camper).

More about his concern for the safety of the propane and the feasibility of going diesel.

If this unit is not leaving north America I would still say stay with the propane. If this is for world travel then this would change the entire planning process.
 

dzzz

For worriers, there are propane alarms that shut off the gas valve.

A proper propane compartment, and short runs to furnace and stove. A 12v frig so there's less temptation to leave the propane on when traveling. I agree that I wouldn't bother with diesel in a demountable truck camper for NA travel. Especially at the expense of replacing a functional system.

The only fires I've ever heard of were from always on propane systems.
 

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