Reality check for diesel-systemed truck camper

[astn]

I need a reality check from people with experience or knowledge with regard to what is and isn't possible with a truck camper + truck. I am most concerned with "systems" particularly using diesel in lieu of propane. While I understand how this is done with the "big boy" motorhomes/expo vehicles, and how this is scaled into smaller vehicles (such as SMBs and trucks like the EarthRoamer) I foresee some significant implementation problems with a truck camper that is -not- permanently mounted to the truck.

In brief: My current "dream" would be to rehab a '00-'02 non-slide out (smaller) truck camper of a reputable brand (Bigfoot, Northern Lite, etc) to put on a '06-'07 1 ton (diesel) truck. While doing this, I would like to replace the propane systems for either diesel-fired or electric systems. Diesel Webasto/Wallas stove, Webasto hydronic heater (with blower or two) as well as hot water system, diesel genny, and electric fridge(/freezer?). I also have some thoughts regard solar and electricity, and a cassette toilet (or composting/incinerating, but unlikely) but that is less a technical challenge then a monetary one.

My problem/concern is: in a SMB, this is relatively straightforward, as the "camper" and diesel engine/fuel tank are always together. On a truck camper, they separate, causing a number of questions and conflicts, such as (a) Should the Webasto hydronic heater be placed on the truck or in the camper? On the truck it can be tied into coolant and used to preheat the motor (very useful and preferable for me) as well as use excess motor heat to make hot water or heat the camper. However, how do you route the water elements to the camper (quick-connect hydraulic couplings spring to mind?) (b) Some of the elements of the system need diesel fuel (e.g. stove, generator) so how do you connect/disconnect from the vehicle fuel tank safely and simply? I think it's obvious that it would be easiest to self-contain the camper to include a diesel tank and treat them as separate units, but that wastes the engine's potential heat as well as drives up costs (if I were to put a Webasto on the truck as well). But what I'm hoping for may not be feasible (either technically or economically or both).

Purpose: This vehicle will be built over the next 6 mos-year and used for regular two week excursions, frequently in cold weather (snowboarding trips). It will probably be regularly moved while on trips (daily) and primarily for dry camping/boondocking. When we're not camping, it needs to "haul stuff" and be used regularly as a primary vehicle (without camper).

Sorry about the length of the post, but I wanted to make sure there was enough information for people to comment. Thanks.

Austin

 

[Pest]

I can't really answer your questions, but I would suggest trying to contact Marc at XPCamper. The unit he designed and builds had diesel appliances and is removable. He's a really awesome and helpful guy.

 

[astn]

...contact Marc at XPCamper. The unit he designed and builds had diesel appliances and is removable.

Thanks for the reply. I know about the XPCamper (and was looking at it online when it was first introduced) but decided a pop-up wasn't the way to go for me. I'm hoping some other people might have some thoughts before I get it touch with him. I'm not sure how I'd feel asking for advice on an existing product to quasi-replicate it (on a hardside, but still). I might have to get over it though. Thanks again.

 

[jronwood]

I am "dieseling" up a camping rig on a 2002 F-350 (hybirized to a 450) 4door dually 4x4 w/ a 7.3. This will be a pull behind, but my "systems" are focusing on one fuel, diesel due to all the current issues with ethynol. I am planning to make my own low RPM diesel generator out of a single cylinder Yanmar w/ a 100 amp alternator. This will suppliment my solar and truck charging ability. Low RPM so it is quiet, and effiecent.Looking for ideas as well. My trialer is in the expedition trailers forum under "Ambulance body trailer".

One other idea is to find a dually ambulance (perhaps 4x4) and use it as is. I just found a 7.3 (non turbo, read: super effiecent but no power house, and last forever!!) in a 92' Ford van ambulance with 70K. A friend picked it up for $3500, thing was immacculate.


Jronwood

 

[Photomike]

I read this the other day and was going to answer then decided to leave it for a while. Well I still have the same question that I had the other day...Why? I am not saying not to do it, just why. I run propane and have to say that I like it. All the appliances run off of one tank, no fuss, no mess. A single tank lasts me for most of the summer or several long trips in the winter. The furnace is very warm (if anything I would like to add a vented cat heater for added warmth but that would require propane).

Would using diesel save money/space/cost or add to the efficiency? If you were going to be on the road for a long time I would say the single fuel would be a good thing, but....

Also, if you were building from scratch it would be one thing, but to pull out all the appliances to install new are you going to have that much better of a system after?

I would like to know more on the diesel and why you are switching?

As for the toilet and cold weather, a BIG YES for the cassette. Much easier to empty in -20

 

[haven]

Photomike has a point. The propane stove, water heater and forced air heater found in RVs work pretty well. In North America, propane is inexpensive and found just about anywhere RVs might go. A propane line is easy to plumb to add an extension hose for a cooktop you can use outside the camper. A propane stove is faster to heat up and easier to modulate the heat than a diesel cooktop. And a propane appliance repair service is easy to find.

Propane has disadvantages, too. First, if you're traveling outside North America, each country seems to have a different standard tank fitting, so a long trip becomes a continuous quest to refill your tank. Second, propane presents a greater fire hazard than diesel does. Propane is heavier than air, so if you have a small leak the propane can pool in a vent under the camper or at a low spot inside, waiting to be ignited. Explosions don't happen often, but do occur occasionally. This is why many boats keep their propane applances in a separate locker with a vent to the outside air. Third, if a propane stove isn't vented to the outside, water vapor condenses inside when you use the stove. Not a problem if you keep the camper well ventilated, but a nuisance when it's cold outside. Fourth, a propane tank takes up space that can be used for storage.

A quick disconnect fitting can be added to a fuel line running diesel from the vehicle's fuel tank to applances in the camper.

 

[OutbacKamper]

Austin;
I will put in my .02 on some of your questions. I am certainly no expert, but I do have experience with some of the issues you have raised.

The retail cost of new diesel RV appliances makes me question the wisdom of putting many thousands of dollars worth of appliances into a 10 year old truck camper. As to the "reputable brand (Bigfoot, Northern Lite, etc)" campers, I would caution you that the build quality and design of these highly rated campers is really not that impressive. I have owned a Northern Lite and have seen the Bigfoot campers under construction at the old factory in Armstrong, BC. The 2 piece fiberglass shell is certainly better than the typical aluminum siding, but every penetration (window, vent, screw, wire, crack, etc) is a potential leak point and there is a lot of wood inside that thin fiberglass shell. I am not saying don't buy a NL or BF camper, just questioning if it is worth spending thousands upgrading a camper that you may want to get rid of in a few years.

You mentioned a diesel "genny"...you will find that small, light and quiet are all pretty much impossible with a diesel generator. I have not found one yet that is practical for a truck and camper application. I think the smallest ones are about 2.5kw and 200lbs. If you find one that meets your needs, please let me know, I would like one myself.

"(a) Should the Webasto hydronic heater be placed on the truck or in the camper? " My advise is place the hydronic heater under the hood of the truck (if you need one) and place a separate air heater (Webasto Air Top, or Espar Airtronic) in the camper. I have hooked up my under hood Espar hydronic heater using quick disconnects to a 4wheel camper with mixed results. The fan coil unit mounted in the camper worked well in mild weather, but the colder it got the less heat was available. The length of coolant hose required to connect the 2 systems is difficult to insulate well enough and the quick disconnects restrict the coolant flow. In other words it is not a very efficient set up. I see no advantage to having a coolant heater in the camper.

"b) Some of the elements of the system need diesel fuel (e.g. stove, generator) so how do you connect/disconnect from the vehicle fuel tank safely and simply?" In my opinion the only safe and practical way is to have a separate diesel fuel tank attached to the camper. This gives the added benefit of being able to use the camper appliances without the truck.

Re buying diesel appliances from XP Camper: I know Marc at XP quite well, and I am sure he would sell you any Webasto appliances you need. However he is working 18 hours a day 7 days a week building campers at the moment, so he will not have much time to offer advice.

My suggestion FWIW is buy the camper you like and use it (with the stock propane appliances). Then take all the money you save by not installing diesel appliances and spend it on travel (fuel, extra time off work, etc). Not many people laying on their deathbed have been heard to say " I wish I had installed diesel appliances in my camper", but I'm sure many have said "I wish I spent less time working and more time travelling with my family/friends".
Cheers
Mark

 

[astn]

Wow, that's a lot of information all at once. Thank you all for responding--you've given me a lot to think about and created a lot of new questions. I'm going to try to group comments to respond below:

Why?

Regarding propane v. diesel. I have a bias against propane, based on several past experiences and the (perhaps overstated) dangers. However, having been in a propane flash fire during an ARFF simulator 'malfunction' (fortunately in full turnout gear) I am hesitant about "living with it." I feel much more comfortable with diesel, and the added bonus of being "single-fuel" with nearly universal availability is a selling point (even with the added expense of appliances and the difference in costs between fuels). While I certainly don't think propane is unsafe, if I can use something else I'll probably make that choice.

Propane has disadvantages, too. First, if you're traveling outside North America, each country seems to have a different standard tank fitting, so a long trip becomes a continuous quest to refill your tank. Second, propane presents a greater fire hazard than diesel does. Propane is heavier than air, so if you have a small leak the propane can pool in a vent under the camper or at a low spot inside, waiting to be ignited. Explosions don't happen often, but do occur occasionally. This is why many boats keep their propane applances in a separate locker with a vent to the outside air. Third, if a propane stove isn't vented to the outside, water vapor condenses inside when you use the stove. Not a problem if you keep the camper well ventilated, but a nuisance when it's cold outside. Fourth, a propane tank takes up space that can be used for storage.

My concerns were mainly about the fire risks of a heavier then air flammable vapor, but I'll add the other three reasons to the list of why I'd prefer diesel. Ultimately though, I have to admit simple bias. If what I'd like is impossible or seriously impractical and I have to "suck it up" and deal with propane, I will, but I'm hoping (and still feel) as if going all diesel is a solid alternative (albeit with a high barrier of entry).

You mentioned a diesel "genny"...you will find that small, light and quiet are all pretty much impossible with a diesel generator. I have not found one yet that is practical for a truck and camper application. I think the smallest ones are about 2.5kw and 200lbs. If you find one that meets your needs, please let me know, I would like one myself.

Yeah, a sure downside. I haven't seen one smaller then that myself. My brother drives a truck for a living, and when he had his bunk added he included a 2.5kw gen in proper enclosure. I didn't find it that loud (though not as quiet as some of the smaller gasoline models) but rather subdued. The relevant question might be: how much space did his "hushbox" enclosure cost and what did it weigh? I shouldn't scoff at 200# either, because I realize it adds up.

"(a) Should the Webasto hydronic heater be placed on the truck or in the camper? " My advise is place the hydronic heater under the hood of the truck (if you need one) and place a separate air heater (Webasto Air Top, or Espar Airtronic) in the camper. I have hooked up my under hood Espar hydronic heater using quick disconnects to a 4wheel camper with mixed results. The fan coil unit mounted in the camper worked well in mild weather, but the colder it got the less heat was available. The length of coolant hose required to connect the 2 systems is difficult to insulate well enough and the quick disconnects restrict the coolant flow. In other words it is not a very efficient set up. I see no advantage to having a coolant heater in the camper.

Makes sense, though I clearly don't understand the Webasto system as well as I'd thought. My impression was a hydronic heater in a camper served two purposes: (a) Since you're using it to heat the camper, you can preheat your diesel (good for the truck.) (b) Since it's tied into your coolant, you can use the truck heat to "get started" in the camper (good for the camper). Therefore, you get "free" hot showers after you've driven somewhere, everything is already preheated, etc. By breaking down the system, don't you lose that efficiency? (Or was it overstated/not applicable anyway?) The Air Top/Airtronic units provide heat only, rather then hot water as well? How would you then handle a hot water system?

…the only safe and practical way is to have a separate diesel fuel tank attached to the camper. This gives the added benefit of being able to use the camper appliances without the truck.

I'd thought of that straightaway, but the Webasto hydronic system made it a bit more confusing to me. I'm not sure how often I would use the camper dismounted honestly, but it seems reasonable to try to retain the ability. How would you suggest transferring diesel from your main tank to your "day tank" (to use the boating parlance)? Just an external pump and run a hose from one filler cap to another? Any advantage in plumbing them together?

Also, if you were building from scratch it would be one thing, but to pull out all the appliances to install new are you going to have that much better of a system after?

I've considered having a camper scratch-built, but worried about the cost. However, with some of the feedback I'm getting (both from here and my wife) plus some of the research I've been doing (in trying to find a suitable used camper) I'm not sure how much I might be saving. Rather then open a bunch of new issues, I'll see where these questions/answers lead me and then reevaluate.

Thanks again for everyone's time and answers. Hopefully I'll hear from y'all soon.

 

[Photomike]

Okay to throw something else into the mix, why not look at a motor home and do the conversions from there? You mention snowboarding trips, this could be done with a standard motor home (class A, B or C) over a 4x4 if you are staying on the main roads or look for a 4x4 motor home and modify. This way you have less hassles to worry about in the distance from engine/disconnect area.

I am on the other side of the propane/diesel issue. I have worked with propane in residential/commercial furnaces, Barbeques and in campers and find it easy to work with. Biggest thing I dislike on diesel is the smell (this is from experience with a VW diesel that my Dad had years ago so may not apply to today's engines and appliances).

 

[astn]

Okay to throw something else into the mix, why not look at a motor home and do the conversions from there? You mention snowboarding trips, this could be done with a standard motor home (class A, B or C) over a 4x4 if you are staying on the main roads or look for a 4x4 motor home and modify. This way you have less hassles to worry about in the distance from engine/disconnect area.

Completely agree. In fact, doing a Sportsmobile-type conversion on a 4x4 E350 would be my first choice if not for two problems: (a) Either your bathroom sucks or you sacrifice a lot of space to it in a van; (b) This truck will be my wife and my only vehicle. We live in the city, and the length is already going to be a challenge, but neither of us use a vehicle enough to justify having two different ones, which is what brought me back to a truck camper (after disregarding the idea entirely several years ago).

A Fuso 4x4 with a flatbed and demountable camper would probably be even better because it would be (potentially) shorter, but I don't even want to broach the idea of daily driving a (quasi-)MDT with the wife.

 

[Photomike]

I understand. Okay here are a couple more things - if you are in the city do you have the space to off load a TC? If you are using the TC in the winter will it be useful to have a full bathroom? Will it freeze in the winter and will you need to winterize after each trip? Maybe a van would be enough of a bathroom.

I have gone through everything that you have and more. I use my truck for the TC 24/7/365 and have been thinking that getting a newer truck and adding electric jacks to the TC may be a way to get rid of an extra vehicle and the costs associated with it. Then I see that with a smaller unit (small class B or even the VW Westfalia that I have in the driveway of my dad's) that I would get better mileage and I am back to the drawing board.

 

[grizzlyj]

Hi

Is altitude an issue? Most diesel burners require an extra "bit" to burn cleanly above 1000m, and I don't know how cleanly or up to what height?
Our camper has a D5WS Eberspacher without any variability for height, and 3 weeks at 910m sooted it up nicely. It has burnt for a night or two at 2000m+ without needing cleaning though. It has ally screws that aren't really meaty enough to get the furnace apart once the fans off, and are not something you would think of to take as spares until you need a chisel to undo them!

Its mounted behind the front bumper, is plumbed with the engine to preheat but I never have. I've read of others who could but never have too, but maybe that depends on how cold it is and how good your vehicle will start. You won't have it always open to the engine, or the heat produced by your burner will be lost rather than heading to your camper first thing on a cold morning. A while later, you want to preheat the engine, but you need to get out into the cold and rain to open the taps to do so, you think the truck will start anyway, and its too cosy inside, so do you bother?!?! Internal switching would be an option?

If we get air in the pipes, since they go the full length of the truck, winding here and there, its a week long painful process to get it all out. I would need 5 or more bleed points in places I can't actually get to, and the high points vary depending on which camper corner is highest.

Next time it will be a compact pipe run for a camper diesel fired water heater, mounted close to the calorifier, under floor heating on a closeable loop (since losing heat from the pipes from our current heater postion into the camper is a good thing to reduce condensation when its cold out, but bad when its hot) and blown air heating, and a second seperate burner for the engine. Two burners would have been very good for spares too! A gas fire for the cold toes would be nice though

One of the first things you're advised to take as spares when heading out is radiator hoses. If those failing is going to be a big deal, why is plumbing your engines precious coolant an extra 30+ feet around your camper, with "a lot" more joins and fittings, a good idea? Sure it gets you free heat after driving, but have you seen how much diesel one of these things burns? Thats not far off free in itself!!

I like to cook with gas though, despite the different fitting types here in Europe making the next bottle a puzzle sometimes as has been said. Refillable systems are popular in the UK, but at the moment you don't seem to be able to refill in southern France, Spain or Morocco, maybe more? Carrying more gas is an idea, but that is kind of duplicating what your existing truck diesel tank could be doing anyway, depending how much room you have spare.

The campers diesel tank would not need to be very big. One I've seen for a caravan was only a couple of litres, so maybe you could just remove it and siphon from your truck tank once a week? KISS?

I would think a diesel genny would just take up too much space. If it was only to charge your leisure batteries a petrol one could be tiny.

 

[astn]

I didn't mean to let this drop, but as it tends to, life gets in the way. To address a couple of questions: (a) We have the space to store a truck camper (at a remote storage lot outside the city). I hadn't thought of the need to winterize/dewinterize a vehicle every time we use it--that will be annoying, but a full (wet) bathroom isn't an option. (b) Altitude wasn't something I'd considered. Given your statement, I'm hoping that it still won't be much of one. I'm on the east coast so the local geography isn't much of a problem, but we do intend to spend a lot of time in the west. If it's a real issue, I expect I'll get good at PM. (c) Regarding the length of plumbing of a hydronic system, crap. I hadn't thought of that in that much detail yet. I suppose I may end up having separate systems entirely (eliminating some of the joy of a diesel system). (d) Regarding the diesel generator, given the weights I'm seeing, I am hoping that I can engineer a system to charge batteries off the main engine while driving and supplement with solar to allow for a few days non-driving.

Essentially to recap, if I choose to go against common wisdom of using propane, the general recommendations are: (1) Separate camper from truck system entirely, to include small diesel tank. (2) Avoid diesel generator if possible (due to weight and size), probably try to maintain charge using solar + truck alternator when driving. (3) Consider buying new (preferably scratch-built?) to avoid additional costs of rehabbing older model. (4) Use separate webasto system in truck to preheat engine/spare parts if needed (and if money is available). Does anyone have any other suggestions offhand?

 

[TCcruzn]

Why not try out a camper with the factory supplied propane appliances for a season before getting too committed to the diesel solution? You may find that you get past your fears with a little experience. In my Lance camper, I find the propane fridge to be very efficient and the furnace to be way more than adequate, except for the power consumption.( which is why I have solar) One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that both Honda and Yamaha inverter generators can be converted to run on propane, which would at least eliminate having to carry gasoline. They are way quieter than the diesel powered options, probably cheaper, and very easy to find.

 

[grizzlyj]

Hi

A friend in the UK had a long conversation with an Espar/Eberspacher techy regarding his camper fit out, and a heat exchanger between camper and engine coolants was suggested for some reason along the lines of one doesn't ideally appreciate the other, I never did get why. But that heat exchanger could be under the hood so the engines coolant doesn't get taken too far?

Personally I don't think its worth it as above, but it is what many many people do do.

You could look up Sterling products. Expensive, but good stuff for charging your second battery bank.

I bought a small 1KW Honda genny to back up the solar when its not sunny, and have yet to need to use it. Since buying it I've read that battery chargers don't always like various gennys output and stop working, not ideal as a justincase scenario, and other than plugging it in and trying it I don't know how you find out?!

Would your storage have power? Could you run a low watt heater all the time to prevent internal frost?