How to make a cheap isolated dual-battery setup for $50

Kosmo How about some lasagna instead of spaghetti? I agree with you on the wiring chart as it is more closely related to usage than a welding cable chart. There is no openly available chart related to automotive use. If someone has the right credentials and is willing to pay the money they can pull up the SAE charts.
I went ahead and pulled up a large version of your chart to make it easier for others to read. It is very similar if not identical to the Blue Sea chart.
USCG ChrisFix Wiring Chart.jpg

I can not comment on the CTEK as I do not use them but hear good things about them.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Ford amps have never failed me. Chrysler amps on the other hand have given me endless headaches.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Calculating a batteries charge rate is a bit complicated, and requires specific technical knowledge about the battery in question.

The alternator is modeled as a constant voltage power supply, lets assume 14V. The battery is modeled as a constant voltage power supply with a resistor in series. The wiring is modeled as a constant resistor. The charge rate of a battery by itself is a function of the voltage at its terminals, the SOC, its internal resistant, and the batteries capacity. The internal Resistance varies widely with battery type, and somewhat with age.

It is easiest to determine charge rates experimentally. Take a charger, ideally one more than 30A that has an amp meter. Discharge the battery to about 50% SOC. Use the resting voltage to determine SOC, which would be about 12.1V. Connect the charger and a volt meter to the battery. After an initial surge, the charge current should level off. Measure the voltage every 10 minutes for an hour. Depending on the charger the voltage may vary. These voltage and current values can be used to estimate charging voltages from your alternator.

If your battery accepts 30A at 50% soc at or near alternator voltage, you can expect about 20A of charging from the alternator, low resistance wiring can get you closer to 30A.

For example, my 510AH bank will accept over 100A at 75% SOC with a terminal voltage of 13.8V. My alternator outputs about 14.1V, and the wiring between the battery and alternator drops about 0.3V at 100A. If that 0.2V drop was removed the batteries would accept at least 150A (assuming the alternator could supply) If you hit the alternators current limit, the output voltage will drop to keep the alternators output under its rating.

As the battery charges the current will taper off. Above 85% it will drop quickly, and it may take several hours to reach 100% depending on alternator voltage.

With low resistance wiring, you can expect peak charging currents of between 10-25% of battery capacity with an alternator voltage between 14.1-14.4V Long wiring, high resistance batteries, or low alternator voltage will reduce this. Charging currents tend to self limit due to the voltage drop in the wiring between the alternator and battery. Obviously there is lots of wiggle room here. At 40% SOC my low-resistance 510AH bank will make out my 200A alternators available power (about 130A) This will taper off to less than 10A at 90% SOC.



Ampacity of a conductor is independent of system voltage. System voltage is only needed to determine insulation type, and most any wire assailable will handle 12v with ease. Wiring for charging a battery (especially from an alternator) should not be sized by ampacity. Instead you should size by desired voltage drop. Ampacity is the minimum wire size, which will result is larger than desirable voltage drops. Ideally I would aim for less than 1% voltage drop (including ground and positive runs) at typical charging current. 20-50A for a smaller battery would be a starting point. 1% would be around 0.1-0.2V. Voltage drop is calculated by using the entire length of charging wiring, the charging voltage, and the amperage estimate, ohms law V=I X R.
 

john61ct

Adventurer
I don't know why everyone is focusing on relatively small charging currents.

The way I read the question seems to me the potentially greater flow happens when closing the circuit between a fully charged bank and a relatively empty one, especially given the likelihood the latter is of high-CAR chemistry.

As Gibbo points out in the canonical article referenced above, this is not really a problem **as long as** the wiring infrastructure is sized to handle it.

And as many posts confirm, trying to actually calculate the Amps in the abstract is basically impossible, too many variables.

Aside from measuring in place for your specific setup, the only solution is to "go big".

And my point is that means much larger gauge than what the charging process requires.
 
Circuit protection become critical. If you go big at least size circuit protection to match the conductor or you might end up with nuisence tripping. Without imperical numbers for amperage the 150% circuit protection and the conductor current carrying capacity of 85% are useless.
 

Kosmo

Adventurer
Kosmo How about some lasagna instead of spaghetti? I agree with you on the wiring chart as it is more closely related to usage than a welding cable chart. There is no openly available chart related to automotive use. If someone has the right credentials and is willing to pay the money they can pull up the SAE charts.
I went ahead and pulled up a large version of your chart to make it easier for others to read. It is very similar if not identical to the Blue Sea chart.
View attachment 410192

I can not comment on the CTEK as I do not use them but hear good things about them.

HH: I would recommend building aux battery units to Marine standards. Given the way they are to be used, the build quality needs to be a above automotive standard, and the main use of the chart is to calculate Voltage drop which is most important for charging, but also important to not waste battery power. For the chart, on the wordpress site if you right click and open in new tab it opens in larger size, and is heavy enough doc to view easily on computer screen. Also you can just google.
 

kstarr

New member
Thanks Stereo, I skimmed this whole thread looking for just this topic. I couldn't understand why the op was using 12awg in the diagram when all the doo-hickeys use 16awg and the draw was only about an amp. I think I'm comfortable with the 16 I ran.
 

john61ct

Adventurer
No harm going bigger. Sometimes cheaper, buy just a few gauges in bulk spools and round up.

Lower voltage drops as well, requires far heavier gauge than the safety issue.
 

justbecause

perpetually lost
I'm about to attempt to rebuild my set up. I started by following these instructions.
My first solenoid https://www.amazon.com/LActrical-Continuous-Duty-Solenoid-80AMP/dp/B0050I94XG?tag=viglink20599-20
never seemed to work right, so off to the parts store (didn't have time for Amazon) everything seemed to work 13.5 going in, 11.5 through the solenoid, didn't think anything of that at the time.

several days into our trip out west I realized my fridge sounded like it was struggling. Checked the 2nd battery, only 8.5ish volts, 11.5 volts through the 2nd 80 amp fuse.
Fiddled with things off on on as I had time, in that time I fried an AGM battery (I guess it was too much draw from the fridge and not enough juice going in, but I am spit balling because I am not well educated in DC)

TLDR: bought 2 cheap(er) Solenoids, should have gotten the 500 amp first.
 

Model94

Member
OK I have a dumb question that i am hoping will turn into an even easier solution. Trip planned and all i want to provide power to is a 12v Engel 40 fridge. Nothing else. I have a spare AGM battery for this already which will be located in the cabin. Can I simply connect the 12v + and ground wires from my existing 7-plug trailer connector (i would plug in and feed wire back through the rear hatch), attach those to the AGM, and then pigtail a 12V receptacle to the battery for fridge power? I am thinking this will power the fridge when the car is not running and charge the battery as well when it is. Will the relay function be taken care of already (????) by the trailer plug connection. I need to keep this as simple as possible. What am I missing? I want it idiot proofed against draining the starting battery.
 
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john61ct

Adventurer
No the plug is just a plug, you do need to isolate when ignition is off - what this thread is about.

The fridge uses a lot of juice, so the AGM will not last long unless you're driving many hours per day. Shore power charger and/or solar is needed, strive to get the batt to 100% daily.

Don't use ciggie ports.

Voltage drop may be an issue, if bigger gauge cabling doesn't solve it then a B2B charger will, in which case that also isolates your starter for you.
 

Model94

Member
Thanks, I will check if it powers off. I think it does from when i pulled a trailer. I have a yamaha 2000 inverter that i can bring, if i have to. Since i already have it ... probably should. Shouldn't a 105 A-h AGM get me at least a couple of days ? Fridge draws a couple amps i think.
 

Model94

Member
Thanks, I will check if it powers off. I think it does from when i pulled a trailer. I have a yamaha 2000 inverter that i can bring, if i have to. Since i already have it ... probably should. Shouldn't a 105 A-h AGM get me at least a couple of days ? Fridge draws a couple amps i think.
 

john61ct

Adventurer
Depends on temp differential, ventilation etc. Maybe 30-80 AH per day.

Your goal should be to never go below 50%, and to get back to 100% full ASAP, not just replace used AH.

Two day trip then back on shore power, don't mind murdering the battery in a few dozen cycles, NP.

250+AH of true deep cycle + 3-400AH solar would be sustainable boondocking long-term.
 

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