109 Expedition rig build

[TeriAnn]

Call me crazy but I'm keeping drum brakes. Don't know what all the fuss is about disks. All they've ever done for me is get stones stuck in the calipers and scream going down the road. My 88" is still on drums and it stops like a dream. Bleed them properly and keep them adjusted and I think they're fine.

109 brakes are very different animals from 88 brakes. They work fine on the flats and quite good down hill, but ...

Those big brakes up front have both shoes set up as leading shoes. This means they brake very well in the forward direction and hardly at all in the rearwards direction. For practical purposes you have both front shoes and the leading shoe in the rear brake stopping you in the forward direction BUT only have the trailing shoe in the rear drum doing most all the stopping in the rearwards direction.

If you spend much time climbing 109s you will realize how poorly those 2 rear trailing shoes hold a nose up 109 in place. My total phobia of drop offs aside, the worst situation I can imagine for a stock brake 109 is having to come to a stop on a steep climb with a sharp turn and a cliff behind you.

What a front disc brake conversion will do is give your 109 front brakes that work just as well in the rear direction as in the front direction (like a stock brake 88).

I think stock 109 brakes are just fine for open field savanna type traveling but I suspect that you may have other things in mind. Go ahead and stay with the drums for a while. They work fine in most situations. If you need to come to a stop in a steep nose up situation go immediately into reverse gear then hold the vehicle in place. Then if it starts rolling rearwards you can have an in gear controlled rearwards descent.


Your rig, your choice. Might be best if you log hours on the stock brakes then determine if you actually need good rearward braking.

 

[Mercedesrover]

First of all, I don’t really think there is a good alternative disk brake conversion for the Series truck yet. I don’t even think Rocky Mountain is doing them anymore. At best these systems are proprietary and having trouble in the bush means contacting the maker and having parts shipped in at crazy overnight costs, if you can get ‘hold of them at all.

Second, the type of failure most likely to occur in a disc brake system will stop your truck dead. With the dust and mud and crud we’re subjecting them to a stuck piston is only a matter of time, and a stuck piston stops your truck. At best you’ve got a rebuild kit and a hone with you and you can rebuild them on the trail. The biggest problem you can have with a drum brake system is a leaky wheel cylinder, remedied with a cheap replacement part no larger than a roll of quarters that you’ve brought along, or at worst, replacing fluid until you’re able to find a replacement part. With my 88” I carry two wheel cylinders, which cover all four corners, on the 109 I’ll have to carry three. For the price and size of lunch I can carry the replacement parts for the most likely brake failure I will encounter.

We’ve also go the handbrake on these trucks that when adjusted and used properly can be a very effective tool off-roading. It frees up both feet to run the clutch and foot-feed and when working well is able to hold a fully laden truck either up hill or down.

If someone comes up with a disk system for these trucks that uses a slide on rotor and a common double piston, non-slide caliper I may consider it. Until then I’ll stick with my drums. Call me grandpa.

 

[Funrover]

AWSOME!!!! I can't wait till this is done!!!!

 

[gjackson]

Jim,

Very cool project! I'm very interested to know how the Merc will pull that 109.

cheers

 

[TeriAnn]

First of all, I don’t really think there is a good alternative disk brake conversion for the Series truck yet. I don’t even think Rocky Mountain is doing them anymore.

I believe they do but they have never been on the Rocky Mountain web site. Rocky Mountain is just a distributor of the conversion.

At best these systems are proprietary and having trouble in the bush means contacting the maker and having parts shipped in at crazy overnight costs, if you can get ‘hold of them at all.

Paul Heystee's conversion is based upon the vented disc brakes that comes standard on the Spanish built Santana PS-10. The PS-10 is basically a Land Rover clone so is in the same weight range as a Series LR. This is a 2 piston vented disk brake system. The Santana PS-10 brake components are the same as used on the Mercedes MB100 van which was never imported into the United States. so yes you would have to import parts from Europe.

The ones on my Land Rover are made by Torrel Industries. This 11 inch vented brake kit uses common (North America) AC Delco dual piston calipers, pads and rubber hoses. The GM rotor does require machining to fit. So it does have a custom consumable. I can probably source new calipers, pads and hoses off the shelf in any North American auto parts store. Rotors would take more time.

Timm Cooper's conversion is back on the market with a new batch of castings. Timm's conversion uses standard off the shelf Defender/ Range Rover Classic disk brake calipers and rotors. These are 11-3/4 inch dia rotors with 4 piston calipers.

Zeus will not sell their conversion to anyone with a US address. It is a 4 piston vented system and other than that I really don't know anything about them.

I will not insinuate that you are making a poor choice, just a different choice than I did. We all drive different rigs different places in different ways and have different reliability & safety concerns. There are many very good choices, all with very good reasons. I think you do dynamite component engineering and am following your 617 conversion with awe.

Best of luck on your project!

 

[Mercedesrover]

I haven’t seen Timm’s setup yet but it sounds the most promising. If it’s as simple as longer wheel studs, a bracket for the caliper and un-modified rotors it may be something worth looking into. I’ve heard Timm is a hard guy to get ‘hold of and he seems to disappear from time to time. If his only custom parts are non-expendables it’s not such a big deal.

And if it’s the case that unmolested RRC rotors and calipers will work, I may just dream something up myself while I’m at this.

Thanks TeriAnn…Thanks a lot. Now you’ve got me thinking about build a disk brake conversion.

Drums are fine
Drums are fine
Drums are fine

Jim

 

[TeriAnn]

I haven’t seen Timm’s setup yet but it sounds the most promising. If it’s as simple as longer wheel studs, a bracket for the caliper and un-modified rotors it may be something worth looking into. I’ve heard Timm is a hard guy to get ‘hold of and he seems to disappear from time to time. If his only custom parts are non-expendables it’s not such a big deal.

Timm doesn't do email or web sites and he does move from time to time. Locating him in a new location is old school word of mouth.

Timm's conversion consists of a custom hub and a custom cast swivel housing that retains all the stock bearings, steering bits & swivel ball.

Here are 2 pictures of the swivel housing:

​

All the brake bits are standard off the shelf US spec parts for Defender, Range Rover Classic & Disco I.

Drums are fine
Drums are fine
Drums are fine

I completely agree, as long at you are not trying to hold a 109 stationary in a steep nose up attitude. I find that I'm not quite strong enough to keep the 109 in place very long holding on by just the two rear trailing brake shoes. Even with LR power brakes.

 

[Mercedesrover]

Wow, those sure are purty.

Stop it Teriann, stop it!

(How much were they?)

jim

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

It is true that drums can be equally powerful. My issue with them particularly in front applications is the constant maintenance required. Up through '74 all Land Cruisers were 4 wheel drum too and I only had one that did it well even, despite constant maintenance. If I replaced everything on the troublesome trucks it would have been fine, but it is so easy to switch to disks on Land Cruisers, I've probably done it a half dozen times now easily...

With drums, I also always hated working on them, sometimes too tight an area and a slightly annoying setup with the springs (my experience with these is from Toyotas). With disks, I have never had a caliper leak or blow ever with the Toyota designs and I have put them through hell or close to it. With drums, I have lost significant braking with 4 wheel drums in rain and mud and other moisture, particularly back east.

Teriann's conversion is pretty good, the big thing is it is pretty hard to F-up a rotor if you are mildly as dilligent with maintenance as have to be with drums. The big issues/consumables would be if a caliper did go out and I really like Teri-Ann's setup for this because of the availability. They also make two versions of each caliper, one with a cable e brake option. It is a common conversion, using machining, and this same type of setup is used for Toyotas in the rear too. Very few people report complaints from it.

If I were to create a setup, this certainly would be a good, cheap, and readily available may to manufacture the kit. Then you would have to have the rotors machined but not that hard or expensive. I can refer a local supplier here in Salt Lake City that is amazingly cheap on all disk rotors (GM and other). They sell for $25 retail what most parts shops big and little sell for $55-65 or more and the exact same rotors.. I bought a set of Brembo performance rotors for $21 for my Saab last winter. They offered two options, the cheap generic for this price or the "Brembo Performance Disks" for $151. So I bought the cheap. And I opened the box, and low and behold they are the same thing in two different boxes from two manufacturers. They don't even bother to make a cheap, they are the same rotor

I just went through this with what I consider to be a good comparison with my MTB. I have been using old rim brakes for almost too long and my hands started hurting on the long descents off the mountain at the end of the day from the reduced braking ability. But I resisted because they do stop very well particular with regular adjustment (on a bike its much easier). Similar issues actually, close but not the same power, worse affects with moisture. But I did finally get some disks (through some tradeout, probably never would have bought I figure), and it is night and day. They are a little heavier but on any bike that does any significant descents, I will never not use disks again...

 

[TeriAnn]

Wow, those sure are purty.

Stop it Teriann, stop it!
(How much were they?)

$1500. I don't know if it is for just the castings or everything. You would have to ask.

From Mark Pinkington:
"The swivel hubs conversion kit for the front axle is $1500 and the rear
is $500. Please contact me on flyers2@sbcglobal.net
<mailto:flyers2@sbcglobal.net> for more information or if you want to
order a set."

I got my Torrel Industries disc brake upgrade then the US dollar was worth more so it is likely the price has gone up. But I think I paid $1200 for delivery to my door and the kit had every part I needed for the conversion.

This is everything that came with my kit. Those steel adapters at the bottom bolt on where the drum brake back plates go. Those adapter plates and the slightly longer hubs are the only special parts and neither would be considered consumables. If you damage one, a new replacement part would probably be way down on our list of concerns. All the other parts are either common AC Delco or Land Rover.


Here is the custom machined rotor:

As you can see the centre hole needs to be machined a lot larger and new holes drilled for the lugs. This is the single modified stock part.


Here's the finished conversion:

​

 

[Funrover]

THAT IS AWSOME!!!!! But I am curious... wouldn't it be just as easy to grab an axle from a RRC or DI? early 90's that have disc? or is there to much to convert?

 

[seriessearcher]

Jim I got a set of the WOO Discs

Jim,

If you call WOO they do sell them when they get a hold of them. Seems Ray and his partner are enjoying retirement and not keeping up with demand much to their dismay. The replacement parts are all off the self AC Delco for wear and tear pieces. The custom bracket and hubs should not need replacing in my life time. So as long as you get a set you should be good to go for the long haul. I like the replacement parts sheet they send with the kit. I like them so far, but have not been able to put too many miles on them with kids, work, and life.

As for your choice with drums, you of all people should know your truck as you put it through 3000 mile plus journey's. Your trips are what this board is all about, so if you like them go with what you know.

I love seeing the build up and as well as all of your projects off of GnR as well.

 

[TeriAnn]

THAT IS AWSOME!!!!! But I am curious... wouldn't it be just as easy to grab an axle from a RRC or DI? early 90's that have disc? or is there to much to convert?

Timm Cooper showed me Series & coiler swivel balls side by side. The coiler swivel ball assembly is a lot more fragile.

This is second hand as I've not tried it, but I've been told that the steering arms from a coiler try to take up the same space as the leaf springs. Coilers mount their steering arms lower than a Series does (Thats why they are always bending tie rods). I'm sure the steering can be reengineered. for a fit.

 

[DCH109]

A little chop and weld to the upper aluminum pan

jim

In my search for something else i stumbled across this forum. Great place.
Then i saw this 109 build and thought hey I'm doing the same thing (your kit Jim) to a MB Turbo Diesel mated to a Series trans.

??? So Jim, What part of the upper Aluminum pan needs to be chopped and welded? And Nice job on your welding of the Steel pan, want to do another?

Dave.

 

[Linus Tremaine]

bulkhead

Jim,
do you think, at this point in your project, that the 5 cylinder MB engine could be made to fit in a NADA truck without any mods to the bulkhead?

Perhaps by moving the engine and trans forward? I have a NADA dormobile and its pretty original. I would hate to cut it up.