9/16" Amsteel - thimbles, supplioer?

[FlyFishermen]

I am looking to make some winch line extensions with 9/16" Amsteel Blue. It seems all I can find for thimbles max out at 1/2". Any ideas?

I want to make extensions that have the minimum strength rating over 36K. My winch is a Superwinch Talon 18.0SR - 18,000lbs with a block is about 36,000 of possible pulling power. If I get up there and double the line over like that I need an extension that can get me there with a bit of head room - 1/2" won't do it with a min strength of just over 30k.

So far I have not found any suppliers that cater to the off-road crowd that sell 9/16". Viking Rope used to do custom work like that, but not any more. There are some marine suppliers I've found that sell it. Any other ideas?

 

[Howard70]

I use Redden Marine Supply (http://www.reddenmarine.com/samson-rope-amsteel-blue-foot.html) to purchase Amsteel Blue line. I find it is best to call them as the price goes down depending on the number of feet you purchase.

Samson (the manufacturer of Amsteel Blue) distributes thimbles for Amsteel Blue of all sizes. Here is a link to their description and models for the different sizes (including 9/16") http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Thimbles.aspx. The last time I ordered some, I used Columbia Basin Knot Company (http://www.cbknot.com/samson-blue-line-thimble/). They were helpful in getting the size I needed, but they weren't particularly inexpensive. There can also be some confusion regarding the finish of the Samson marketed thimbles. The link above lists coated and stainless (the stainless could cost you more than your line). I ordered painted and when they arrived all the thimbles had been dumped in a box (drop shipped from Samson, not a Columbia Basin Knot error) and the paint was completely chipped and bare metal was exposed. Columbia Basin Knot worked with me to get Samson to accept a return and replace them with great powder coated versions. If the finish matters to you, you might work with your vendor to make sure you get the powder coated versions rather than the painted ones.

I had found another thimble that was stainless that I liked the design of (http://www.uscargocontrol.com/Rigging-Supplies-Hardware/Extra-Heavy-Duty-Wire-Rope-Thimbles-SS-304). But they seemed pretty heavy and were potentially wider than some of the fittings I wanted to use so I did not pursue them. If you look at those, note that the prices listed may be for packages of 10 (you'd need to call to confirm). If you decide to go that route and want to split a pack let me know.

If you're making your own lines, you might also be interested in some odd sized tubular webbing to use for chafe guards. 1" tubular webbing is easy to find, but it is pretty tight on 9/16" line. It is possible to get 1 1/2" tubular webbing from these guys http://www.balancecommunity.com/slackline-webbing/weave/tubular-webbing. When I splice eyes in the ends of my 1/2 or 9/16 lines I usually use two layers of tubular webbing on the eyes for protection. If I can get 1" on the line I use it for the base and then 1.5 for the 2nd layer. When I'm putting a moveable chafe guard on the line between the eyes I use 1.5 because it slides easier to place it where I need it.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Howard

 

[FlyFishermen]

Howard - thanks for the information, lots of good stuff there. You answered a few questions.

One more on the chafe guards - what are your thoughts on using that method as opposed to the thimbles for the eyes? Is there a need for the structure of the thimble? Or can you get by with just the loop and chafe guard?

I have researched how to make eyes and do the splicing so I have that part covered.

 

[Howard70]

One more on the chafe guards - what are your thoughts on using that method as opposed to the thimbles for the eyes? Is there a need for the structure of the thimble? Or can you get by with just the loop and chafe guards?

Good question. I have a thimble in the end of my winch line. For the line extensions and tree slings I've made I'm trying the soft eyes (no thimbles). This saves some weight and for the amount of winching I do (very little) I think it will be fine. If you're winching a lot, the soft eyes might wear quickly. I've also made some soft shackles to also save weight. Regular shackles sized appropriately for 16 or 18 k lb winches can get large and heavy - even high quality alloy shackles would be 1 to 1 1/8" for the connection to a snatch block. I carry a combination of regular shackles and several soft shackles. However, I've yet to do a recovery with our larger truck so I'm speculating without experience. On our smaller trucks we've done several recoveries and I feel confident in the set up we've used there. If you look into the materials and practices that crane lifters and large ship docking systems use, they frequently use soft eyes as thimbles would just be too heavy and potentially dangerous (dropping the end of a 3" line with an appropriate thimble could break a foot).

Howard

 

[FlyFishermen]

I am trying to figure out the rope shackles here.

9/16" Fid = 12.5 and it is recommended to use 2 fids = 23" of bury line.

From what I gather, the ends of the ropes (bury end and outside end) are tied together to create the knot.

So if I have a 3ft shackle "loop" as my target length (between the knot and eye of the loop) - how much linear rope do I need?

The end loop (that wraps around knot end) is expanded by compressing the outside line, so for ease of calculating I think the loop length can be left out because when it is in-use, under load, the only length of the eye is the circumference of the line behind the knot - 2x 9/16" lines (bury + outside).

The next question is how much line in the knot and past the knot I need. Under load the knot will tighten up so there has to be enough room for the knot to do so.

If I need 2 lines to make the knot the 2 fid dimension doesn't mean anything - as long as my bury is that length or more. For a 3ft shackle length (between the eye and knot) there is 36" of bury.

So if I allow for 6" of tails to tie the knot would that work? Or do I need 8" or 10" for enough to work with? I think that leaves 72" plus 2x the tail length for a 3ft shackle.

 

[Howard70]

Hello FlyFishermen:

There are a lot of different rope shackles out there and they differ in how the shackle portion and the end knot are tied. I found some tests of the various styles (I can't find the link) and decided to use the "High Strength Soft Shackle" (http://l-36.com/high_strength_soft_shackle.php) with the "Button Knot" instead of the "Diamond Knot". It is a an easy shackle to make, but the Button Knot is definitely the hard part (or it was for me). I found a good description of the Button Knot at http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/button.pdf that finally allowed me to tie one. It takes a lot of time to work the button knot into the rock hard form you want, but I sit in front of the TV and work at it bit by bit. I also found it helpful to mount the two lines in a vice as I laid out the Button Knot. The next time I do the Button Knot on a soft shackle I plan to mark one of the lines with a black Marks Alot to keep the two strands identifiable.


The only other thing I found that wasn't well described in the instructions was that you want the closable loop in the end of the shackle opposite the knot to be as small as possible. I thought that since that loop closes around the knotted end of the shackle as the shackle is weighted that it would close up completely regardless of it's size. That is only partially true. If you leave it bigger than "as small as you can make it" the weighted shackle has some space around the knotted end that looks like it could increase the chance of the weighted shackle opening. I've not seen one open under load, so my preoccupation could be baseless, but if you make the loop as small as you can, the weighted shackle closes up nicer and inspires more confidence.

To figure out the length of line to use for the shackle, I use the online calculator here (http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php). Even though that calculator occurs on page describing a different shackle, it does a fair job of estimating the length for the "High Strength Soft Shackle."

I use 2" tubular webbing as a partial chafe guard on the soft shackle. I'd prefer 3" tubular webbing so that the chafe guard would cover the whole length, but I could fine 3" tubular.

Some additional information that might be useful. I wasn't satisfied with the bulk and expense of the various static line or webbing "tree slings" (lifting slings in the crane lingo) available. I made my own by splicing Amsteel Blue into a closed loop (a circle). I then flattened the circle and passed it through a piece of 2" tubular webbing. Before splicing I had placed other stripes of webbing onto the line so that the final sling had chafe guards at each end with the middle contained in the 2" tubular webbing. I'm not sure this description makes any sense - so if you're interested in that configuration, let me know and I'll take a photograph.

Finally - if you use soft shackles I think it is really important to make sure that everything is your set up is absolutely static. If you have any dynamic components in the system they will stretch and build up energy that could case flying lines if anything gives way. As long as everything is static then there is much less potential energy and if something breaks you don't have flying pieces going around to break windshields, arms or heads!

Howard

 

[Beowulf]

Here is how I made my extensions.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/77016-Winch-Extension-Making-your-own-a-tutorial

 

[FlyFishermen]

Thanks for the info.

Beowulf - that is the exact method I am going after for my extensions - soft eyes with chafe guards. I am going to use 15" of linear rope length for the eyes. I took some measurements off my 1/2" winch line and I think the 15" size should be a good number to hit - not too small and not too much line either.

Howard - I will have to look in to that version of a shackle. The kind I was thinking of is not 2 parallel lines like the version you linked to, rather 1 line with an inside buried portion with a knot tied at the end of the bury. I think I would rather have the single line with 2 layers. I will look in to that button knot - I might be able to combine the two. From what it looks like - the loop end has one end of the rope passing directly through the other. I would think the bury method would cause less stress on the rope near the loop than the crossing method. Just thinking.

 

[FlyFishermen]

Howard - Another question on the sleeves -

Is it possible to squeeze 9/16" in a 1" tubular webbing? Or is it nearly impossible? Reason I ask is I have been looking for tube webbing and I came across some 1.25". My idea is to put the 1.25" down then 1.5" for a double layer. Though, if 1" webbing won't go then that may leave 1.25" a little more on the "snug" side so maybe 2 1.5" layers, or a 1.5" and a 2" would do?

As for lock stitching I think I'll use some Dyneema fishing line. It shouldn't break down like mono over time and temperature extremes, plus it is thinner and stronger than nylon mason line.

 

[Howard70]

Hello Flyfishermen:

I think the 1.25 would be the most "sure bet" for 9/16" line. 1" tubular webbing varies in size and some could probably fit on a lucky day, but 1.25 should fit. Could you let me know your source for 1.25"? I had some, but I forgot where I got it!

1" is usually pretty easy to find. I think that with 1/2 Amsteel Blue you can actually get 1" on the line, then 1.25 and finish with 1.5. That gives you three layers of chafe guard and helps keep the Amsteel Blue in a broader curve around whatever you fasten it to. You could try that with 9/16" but I'm not sure you'll get the 1" tubing over it. I don't have any loose 9/16 Amsteel Blue to try it on.

When you're trying to get thick line into tubular webbing I've found it helpful to use some of the lock stitch cord passed through the line at the end. Then I pass the cord through the tubing with a fid and then pull the line into and hopefully through the tubing. Sometimes tying the cord to a stationary object and then pulling against that while using both hands to smooth the tubing onto the line helps. If the fit is really tight I sometimes whip the end of the Amsteel to "shrink" it down and then have the pull cord exit the whipping on two sides. Pulling on the two strands of pull cord keeps the Amsteel aligned and prevents it from bunching up. I suspect the pros have some easy tricks that would make all this look like wasted time!

I think the Dyneema fishing line would make elegant lock stitch and whipping cord (I've not used it so I'm not sure how it will hold knots if used for whipping line). Way back in the early 90's we were outfitting a sailboat in San Diego and I happened across a marine store that was selling off all of it's old Dacron woven fishing line. I bought several hundred feet and I've been using it ever since as line for lock stitching and whipping. The stuff brings back memories of a friend's father who was a serious sportfisherman who would return from an ocean trip and strip the line off his big Penn reels, rinse it in fresh water and dry it looped over the clothesline. I agree with you that monofilament wouldn't work very well.

Howard

 

[FlyFishermen]

I ordered my rope here. Over 700ft total. Ouch. 320ft 9/16", the rest is mixed 1/8 and 7/64 for other projects.

I added up what I thought I needed, rounded up to the nearest ft for each section and hit 315 so I rounded up another 5 to 320. That should cover the knot tails on the shackles and leave me with my intended extensions and sizing runs (100, 50, 2x 25's, 10, and 2x 5's).

I will look again this evening for the 1.25" tube webbing. I dont recall where I spotted it right off hand.

 

[coop74]

I am looking to make some winch line extensions with 9/16" Amsteel Blue. It seems all I can find for thimbles max out at 1/2". Any ideas?

I want to make extensions that have the minimum strength rating over 36K. My winch is a Superwinch Talon 18.0SR - 18,000lbs with a block is about 36,000 of possible pulling power. If I get up there and double the line over like that I need an extension that can get me there with a bit of head room - 1/2" won't do it with a min strength of just over 30k.

So far I have not found any suppliers that cater to the off-road crowd that sell 9/16". Viking Rope used to do custom work like that, but not any more. There are some marine suppliers I've found that sell it. Any other ideas?

Just a bit of physics... Using a snatchblock will not double the weight on the line.... If your line is capable of 30 it will be fine.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk

 

[FlyFishermen]

Just a bit of physics... Using a snatchblock will not double the weight on the line.... If your line is capable of 30 it will be fine.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk

Sure it does. See below.

The red line is the regular winch line. Then the block. Then the extensions in blue to the anchor point (tree with a strap in this case). The extensions are the anchor for the block, not running line added in to the winch line that wraps around the sheave.

If the winch is capable of 18k single line, then that means that both sides of the red line in the image can take 18k. That means that, for simplicity of explanation, the block is capable of pulling 36k = the blue extensions have to take that full load as it is carrying the doubled over/blocked winch line.

 

[FlyFishermen]

Could you let me know your source for 1.25"?

Well I have been looking again and I can't seem to come across where I found it. I found a few references to places that had it, but every one of them turned up nothing in 1.25". There is one place that I sent an email to seeing if they can source some (TN Webbing), but I think they are going to be a bulk supplier. Another place I found only sold webbing in "whole rolls". I am not sure what the name of the place was now.

 

[FlyFishermen]

I use Redden Marine Supply (http://www.reddenmarine.com/samson-rope-amsteel-blue-foot.html) to purchase Amsteel Blue line. I find it is best to call them as the price goes down depending on the number of feet you purchase.

Another quick note here - their prices were standard as in what they advertise on the site. The price break is at 600ft as that is what comes on a roll. I don't know what the exact breakdown of the pricing was, but the lady said she would give me the 600ft discount because between 2 lines I had over the 600 mark, it just won't be on a spool. There wasn't an incremental price drop with, say, up to 100ft, 101-250ft, 251-500ft, etc.