Big Game - Long Range

[Schattenjager]

I am not a hunter, but am shopping for my uncle, who is uber hunter man and is going to Alaska for the first time to hunt. I want to get him a Remington Model 700 XCR for Christmas, but am up in the air about caliber. He does his own reloading, for whatever that is worth.

I am questing for a caliber to suite a wide range of conditions. Reverse engineering the equation - if the round can cleanly take down a moose sized critter at 800 yards, it will serve shorter ranges just fine.

Narrowing it down to a .338 or .300 I would appreciate you thoughts on it's various incarnations: .338 / .300 Win or the Remington Ultra Mag. Of course flat trajectories are desired but most importantly is the energy far down range.

Thoughts?

:REOutArchery02:

 

[Mercedesrover]

You should find out what he already has and already reloads. If he reloads 300 Win Mag, that would be perfect on all accounts.

 

[Capt Eddie]

You might want to find out what game he is hunting. Then you can find the best bullet weight and the gun to shoot it. If he is going after bear you would want heavy weight. If he is into long range >300 yards you may want a lighter weightbullet. Feel him out to find the gun he doesn't have but wants.

 

[KevinNY]

800 yards is an impossible and irresponsible shot at any big game animal. Get closer, thats why it's called hunting.

Even if you had ranges vs. trajectory plotted to the yard, a perfectly accurate laser range finder, some sort of guarantee that the animal would not move at the shot(a bullet takes over a second to get there at that range), a steady sandbagged bench rest, and ZERO wind, and a rifle/load combination that could hold Sub MOA at that range( and those are built not bought) and a world class marksman that regularly practiced, it would still be in category of an unethical stunt. As you say you are not a hunter I understand you may not realize all of this but it is my opinion as someone experienced in Long Range target competition. Your uncle probably has an appropriatte rifle already. I'd suggest a really good pair of binoculars like Swarovski 8x32s as a better gift that he will truly use and appreciatte or perhaps a gift certificate to have one of his old favorite rifle refinished in a weatherproof coating like teflon etc for the wet conditions up there.

The guide won't let him try that shot anyway, they want their success rates to look good and your uncle to go away with a good experience. Remember, if you wound a moose, you bought the moose, and your expensive hunt is over. Most guides would rather see a hunter show up with something he has used for years and is comfortable with, they hate seeing new rifles get uncased in camp.

 

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Here is a nice article I found.........

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/combo_deer_elk/index.html


Be sure to go to page two.



.........and another one.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm


http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm



Oh Wow! I keep finding more great info the more I dig!

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/external.php


.

 

[Schattenjager]

His long time rifle was stolen and he won't be going to Alaska till the 09 hunting season. He lives on 300 acres and is a very experienced marksman and will have ample time to setup his rifle and prove it's worth.

I appreciate the caution about making a long range kill shot. The premise is I want to get him a rifle in a caliber capable of it - not for the purpose of doing it. Shorter ranges will then be assured of proper ballistics for various tasks. And who knows? He may need to snipe a bear, stalking his beloved nephew, from afar... I want to make sure he can!

:REOutShootinghunter

800 yards is an impossible and irresponsible shot at any big game animal. Get closer, thats why it's called hunting.

Even if you had ranges vs. trajectory plotted to the yard, a perfectly accurate laser range finder, some sort of guarantee that the animal would not move at the shot(a bullet takes over a second to get there at that range), a steady sandbagged bench rest, and ZERO wind, and a rifle/load combination that could hold Sub MOA at that range( and those are built not bought) and a world class marksman that regularly practiced, it would still be in category of an unethical stunt. As you say you are not a hunter I understand you may not realize all of this but it is my opinion as someone experienced in Long Range target competition. Your uncle probably has an appropriatte rifle already. I'd suggest a really good pair of binoculars like Swarovski 8x32s as a better gift that he will truly use and appreciatte or perhaps a gift certificate to have one of his old favorite rifle refinished in a weatherproof coating like teflon etc for the wet conditions up there.

The guide won't let him try that shot anyway, they want their success rates to look good and your uncle to go away with a good experience. Remember, if you wound a moose, you bought the moose, and your expensive hunt is over. Most guides would rather see a hunter show up with something he has used for years and is comfortable with, they hate seeing new rifles get uncased in camp.

 

[ntsqd]

snip.........
800 yards is an impossible and irresponsible shot at any big game animal. Get closer, thats why it's called hunting.

Agree and disagree. It is not impossible though it may be irresponsible depending on the circumstances. Absolutely a good hunter could probably get closer, with enough time.
A hunter friend of mine regularly shoots sub MOA at that range and further. That's not to say the anyone, even a good hunter, could do that. He has spent the time and money to have rifles built that are capable of the kind of shooting, and then practiced and read and practiced some more to be able to make that kind of shot. He regularly competes in long range events as part of staying 'tuned up' on making those sorts of shots. Which, I think knowing nothing of the area, would totally be irresponsible to take in the East, but not necessarily so in the West.

All of this was driven by that shot that all hunter's dread. Fairly close and seemingly easy shot, but things changed as the primer detonated and he ended up tracking a wounded animal through the under brush. He wanted to make sure that if it ever happened again that he had done all that he could to make it not so.



My advice would be to choose a caliber that has off the shelf ammunition available anywhere he's likely to go hunting. Would suck to have to scrub the hunt or borrow a rifle that he's unfamiliar with just because his custom ammo get wet or lost by the airlines or........

 

[762X39]

The long shot and custom ammo

I found this to be an interesting thread with several strong opinions expressed. Now I know opinions are like As%8oles and every one has one so here is mine...
I have been shooting for 25 years and did not come from a hunting heritage. I took up hunting in my 30's and have not looked back since. My thoughts on rifles is quite opinionated but I can deliver the shot and practice to make it so.
I favour a reasonable calibre that is available off the shelf but have found that a good calibre for me is not reasonable for someone somewhere else. Definately ask what calibre your Uncle is using and reloading now.Any rifle can be made good.
My rifle of choice is a 1942 Swede carbine in 6.5X55. I purchased it as a stop gap measure 20 years ago but found it to be so intrinsically accurate (400 metres on a moving target and 500 metres on a fixed target with open sights and enough practice to be confident about it) that I see no reason to change.
Good advice about the optics by the way.Some Swarovski or Fujinon binos is an excellent choice.Involve your Uncle in the firearms purchase because a rifle is a very personal choice.

 

[calamaridog]

Involve your Uncle in the firearms purchase because a rifle is a very personal choice.

I highly suggest letting him pick the gun he wants within your price range. Most hunters would prefer to decide themselves.

This is an awesome present you are planning!

 

[doncestnik]

ntsqd is correct you should definitely focus on the popular rounds that you can find at any sports store: 338 mag, 300 mag and 300 wsm. For downrange energy a heavier bullet will retain more energy than a smaller bullet, but with that said I do have a friend that dropped a moose at 250y with a 90g 243 and an uncle who has taken a bull with a 130g 270.

As far as trajectory is concerned a 300wsm and 300 mag are nearly identical to a 25-06 with a 338 not being too far behind and 300wsm having the ability to shoot a short action and short barrel resulting in a lighter gun.

If all else fails you might want to consider getting him a good scope since it should cost about as much as the rifle.

 

[Schattenjager]

Got it!

Thanks for all the solid info and advice. It was irrefutable that Pat (uber uncle) had to be involved. It would have been a lot of fun to surprise him, but this is not the kind of item for a surprise...

So, after a few conversations and much research, I got him a Remington 700 XCR in .300 Winchester Magnum. The rifle is tough and well built and will be sent to Alaska so Homer Strickland can put one of his unbelievably amazing muzzel brakes and trigger jobs on it. I had a Homer built break put on a .375 H&H (looked like a billet minnow bucket) and it transformed that rifle from an S&M tool to a dream to shoot. The sound, however, made sure that you would be all alone in the forest after the first shot.

.300 WM is such a great all around caliber - he can load it up for moose and elk or down for deer etc. The favored bullet is a .308 180g pushed out to 3125 feet per second. With bullets up to 220g and as low a 160g and wide variery of powers, the bolt action 700 should serve any need he has.

The optics are up to him...

 

[Mike S]

800 yards? On a game animal? That is just under half a mile. My longest shot on a big game animal is just shy of 400 yards, and that is a LONG shot when hunting.

Agree that the 300 WM is a great cartridge - more powerful than really needed but excellent. I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag on big game, which has similar ballistics.

 

[MaddBaggins]

I have a .338 WinMag. It is a heavier round and packs more punch at long range than the .300. It also drops more at long ranges, but a good shooter knows how to deal with that.
.300 is more common, however.

The Remington 700 is an awesome rifle.

 

[MaddBaggins]

So after finishing reading this thread, I see you already got one.
Cool rifle, I'm sure he'll enjoy it!