Border destruction concerns.

jeffryscott

2006 Rally Course Champion: Expedition Trophy
calamaridog said:
The underlying reasons for problems which force migrants north still exist. We should have spent more money on developing economies in our own back yard instead of all over the damn world.

Much of the problem on the border stems from our tinkering. The maquiladora system was set up to put jobs in Mexico to benefit U.S. manufacturers and to give Mexico jobs. What happened is the border cities swelled in population for low paying jobs and people quickly realized they could cross the border and make as much in one hour as they made all day, making the rush north even greater.

That's a very simplistic, but fairly accurate assessment (obviously, people came across long before the late 1960s when the maquiladoras were started, but like the population of border cities, the illegal corssings increased as well.

I totally agree that the solution is building Mexico's economy, but then the price of so many things we as a consumer society rely on would increase dramatically in price, something most in the U.S. would find worse than illegal immigration. Corporations (this is already happening along the border) would bail, just as they did in the U.S. when labor rates got too high, and move elsewhere where labor is cheaper - leaving even more unemployment in its wake.

Definitely no easy answers.
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
jeffryscott said:
I totally agree that the solution is building Mexico's economy, but then the price of so many things we as a consumer society rely on would increase dramatically in price, something most in the U.S. would find worse than illegal immigration. Corporations (this is already happening along the border) would bail, just as they did in the U.S. when labor rates got too high, and move elsewhere where labor is cheaper - leaving even more unemployment in its wake.

Definitely no easy answers.

Yes - as I said above, no one seems to connect cheap vegetables (or cheap ---- fill in the blank) with cheap labor.

Ironically I just spent half an hour talking with 2 brothers who showed up here, hot and a bit lost (but at least they had hats, backpacks, long sleeved shirts, and plenty of water bottles, which were almost empty) - they are from Michoacan, and said that they were farm workers there but lost their jobs because the farm sold to a large conglomerate and mechanized. This was their first trip up here - they're on their way to So Cal for farm jobs, to join their cousins, they said.

They wouldn't come if there were not opportunity.

There would not be opportunity if others filled those jobs instead.

We feed, water, and sometimes clothe many of these migrants; I buy only vegetables and meats from organic farms (and it's really, really expensive - like $3 heads of lettuce and $2.99/lb tomatoes) so I'm not doubly supporting this terribly harmful system - these guys truly risk death to come up here and work, so we can have cheap veggies (though I can't be sure the organic farms don't use illegal labor, it's less likely).

When someone bad-mouths these migrants (and again, I'm really really against it - they are i-l-l-e-g-a-l), I just remember the man I helped a few months ago who was wandering lost for 4 days, limping with bloody blisters, and had given up hope when I stopped to help he burst into tears, and said God answered his prayers and sent an angel to help him. Gulp.

Just ask Jonathan - I'm no angel!
 
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VikingVince

Explorer
Facts are always preferable to inaccurate perceptions. The following is worth reading.



Immigration and Undocumented Workers, Part 2: Greenspan Says Workers "Donate" Billions of Dollars, Yearly


According to claims of many who oppose “illegal aliens,” and allegedly the main reason that many state they are against undocumented workers, is because of the drain on the “American taxpayer.” Discounting the fact that Mexicans live on the American continent as well, ethnocentric and racist thinking is inherent in the thinking process borne out in such remarks, made without evidence to support it. According to information, articles and studies spanning the past six years the undocumented, immigrant worker has more than paid for the services that he or she or their family members use.

The biggest complaint seems to be that undocumented workers don’t pay taxes. How would one pay their taxes if it weren’t taken out in payroll? If payroll taxes aren’t being paid the main one to blame is the employer not taking out those taxes. If this is the true problem it can be controlled with harsher penalities for those businesses who consistently refuse to apply the proper taxes. If the reason they are hiring illegally is for the monetary gain and that is taken away from them, they quit hiring. If there are no jobs, illegal immigrants will not come for jobs that do not exist.

However, statistics indicate that, overall, payroll taxes are being paid. There is not a problem with taxes not being paid, overwhelmingly, quite the opposite in fact.

Less than .5 percent of the U.S. population is undocumented, according to the U.S. Census. The percentage of the population that is foreign-born is half what it was at the turn of the century. Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for almost all public benefits, including unemployment and Social Security, even though they are required to pay into these programs through payroll taxes. According to the Urban Institute, only about one quarter of immigrants are undocumented; most of those do not sneak across the border, but instead enter legally and stay after their visas expire—and only one-third of them come from Mexico

According to Alan Greenspan, Federal Reserve Board Chairman, in his 2001 congressional testimony, “undocumented workers contribute more than their fair share to our great country”. These undocumented workers in essence donated, Greenspan informed 2001 Congress, $27 billion to state and local economies, the difference between what they paid in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion). Greenspan also testified that in Illinois alone “Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used.” This is a net “profit” for Illinois of $309 million.

A February 2002 study by the University of Illinois found that even as undocumented workers paid federal and state income taxes (one study puts the amount of taxes paid at $90 billion per year) they did not claim the tax refunds for which they were eligible. These unclaimed refunds amount to the donation of billions of dollars to the public coffers.

Another study by the Urban Institute found that undocumented workers contribute 2.7 billion to Social Security and another $168 million to unemployment insurance taxes. Because of their illegal status, these workers will not be able to access these programs even if they wanted to. In addition to the above tax donations, undocumented workers pay billions of dollars in local and state sales taxes when they purchase appliances, furniture, clothes and other goods.

A UCLA study found that undocumented workers contribute approximately 7 percent of California’s $900 billion gross economic product, or $63 billion. The contribution by each undocumented immigrant is therefore about $45,000, counting even children, the unemployed, and those too old or ill to work. Almost all undocumented workers receive wages near, and sometimes below, the legal minimum, which at $5.75 per hour equals an annual income of $11,960.

Any increase in undocumented immigrants in the last 20 years, according to Policy Analyst Walter Ewing in his March 2002 study the 2000 Census, was due not to an actual increase in immigration, but to greater efforts during the 2000 Census to reach undercounted minority groups missed during the 1990 Census. It was revealed that the number of undocumented immigrants in the United State stood at about 8.7 million, an increase of nearly 5 million since 1990. He also cited a 2001 study by Northeastern University’s Center for Labor Market Studies that estimated of the nations 19.1 million foreign-born workers comprised 12.8 percent of the total U.S. labor force in 1999 and 2000.

In addition, The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that in 2001 there were 14.7 million Hispanic workers in the United States, including 9.6 million of Mexican origin, spanning all occupational categories. According to a November 26, 2001, story in Fortune Magazine, the “nation’s 27.6 million legal immigrants produced an estimated 10% of U.S. GDP {Gross Domestic Product}” in 2000, while undocumented immigrants made all additional contribution of more than $200 billion.

In August 2001 North American Integration and Development Center (NAID) produced a study estimating that undocumented immigrants from Mexico contributed $154 billion to the U.S. Gross Domestic Product in 2000, based on the fact that $77 billion went to the Gross State Product of California alone, and then estimating the presence of 3 million undocumented Mexican immigrants nationwide. NAID was created to conduct ongoing research concerning North American integration and to assist communities and governments with policies and investment projects for sustainable and equitable development across borders.

According to Jeffrey S. Passel, Senior Research Associate, Pew Hispanic Center, analysis of the March 2005 Current Population Survey shows that there were 11.1 million unauthorized migrants in the United States a year ago. Based on analysis of other data sources that offer indications of the pace of growth in the foreign-born population, the Center developed an estimate of 11.5 to 12 million for the unauthorized population as of March 2006. Of those 11.1 million About 7.2 million unauthorized migrants were employed in March 2005, accounting for about 4.9% of the civilian labor force. They made up a large share of all workers in a few more detailed occupational categories, including 24% of all workers employed in farming occupations, 17% in cleaning, 14% in construction and 12% in food preparation. That makes 7.2 million immigrants from Mexico contributing in well over $154 billion dollars to the GDP in 2005. This would be lost if the borders were completely sealed, the undocumented immigrants rounded-up and sent back to Mexico.

In addition, undocumented immigrants also contribute billions of dollars in income, property and sales taxes, although it is difficult to quantify the amount. A January 2001 report by the Social Security Administration concluded that undocumented immigrants “account for a major portion” of the more than $20 billion paid to Social Security between 1990 and 1998 that payees can never draw upon because the payments took place under names or Social Security numbers that don’t match the agency’s records. Such payments totaled almost $4 billion in 1998. The Urban Institute calculated that in 1995 undocumented immigrants in New York alone contributed over $1.1 billion in taxes.

In the March 2005 estimate two-thirds (66%) of the unauthorized 11.1 million population had been in the country for ten years or less, and the largest share, 40% of the total or 4.4 million people had been in the country five years or less. There were 5.4 million adult males in the unauthorized population in 2005, accounting for 49% of the total. There were 3.9 million adult females accounting for 35% of the population. There were 1.8 million children who were unauthorized, 16% of the total. In addition, there were 3.1 million children who are U.S. citizens by birth living in families in which the head of the family or a spouse was unauthorized.

United States taxpayers, especially with the financial chaos that is Social Security, need to closely examine the costs of loosing the resources of 7.2 million contributing employees, whose W-2s will fall silent, revenue will sharply decline on state and federal levels, Social Security’s finacial woes will be immediately felt by all on it. The walk out one week ago, to show in one small way the economic power of this group of people, is nothing compared to what will truly happen if they are forced from our borders.
 

crawler#976

Expedition Leader
...spent a week between Douglas and Seirra Vista last year - sights like the one below were common on the back roads we traveled. This one is much further north than normal tho.

http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=4930494&nav=menu135_2_5

Volunteers Clean Up Trash Left by Illegal Immigrants


(CBS 5 News)--Deep in the desert around Lake Pleasant, a used razor sits in a wash on the desert floor, part of the tons of trash that illegals discarded during their journey from Mexico to the U.S.


Before illegals cross the border, most purchase a backpack for the journey, pre-packed with food, water, a trash bag for cover if it rains, and a change of clothing. Once they arrive, they remove their dirty clothes, discard the backpack and its contents, and head toward town, in search of a new life, leaving behind the symbols of their old life in the desert.


The Minutemen, along with a group called "Arizona Hunters Who Care," organized a cleanup Saturday. The trash covered an area larger than two football fields. Using rakes, hoes, and wheelbarrows, they braved triple digit desert heat to wipe clean the evidence of those who entered this country illegally.


Lance Altherr of the Arizona Hunters Who Care explained, "This is where deer, javelina, quail should be running around, and they can't because these areas have been invaded by trash, and illegals."


The fruit of Saturday's labor: at least three dumpsters worth of trash. Cleanup volunteers said that in some areas the refuse was nearly three feet deep.


Immigrant dumpsites like these are common around the border, but it is somewhat rare to find them this far north.


05.20.06

The problem doesn't need a fence to "solve" it- just enforce exsisting laws on employers, create a program to allow workers across the boarder legally.

One of the things that really bothers me is the ease with which litterally tons of product can be shipped across the border. If they can get 9000 Lbs of pot thru, think what 9000 Lbs of Ammonium Nitrate can do. The Oklahoma City bomb was only 1000 Lbs of Anfo...


http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/053marijuana31-ON-CR.html

Marijuana seizure largest in county history

Christopher Kline and Brent Whiting
azcentral.com
May. 31, 2006 02:43 PM

Phoenix Police raided a Glendale home Wednesday, confiscating an estimated 7,000 to 9,000 pounds of marijuana.

Investigators described the raid near 83rd avenue and Bell road as the largest pot seizure in Maricopa County history.

Sgt. Andy Hill, a police spokesman, said the marijuana has an estimated wholesale value of $3.5 million to $4.5 million. The previous largest seizure by Phoenix investigators was about 6,000 pounds.

“In doing surveillance, police could smell marijuana from down the block,” Hill said.

Ernesto Dominguez, 32, was arrested in connection with the raid. Police also seized two rifles and two handguns from the home.

So, IMO, there has to be some balance struck between security and access.

As a side note, 1 in 10 Mexican Nationals currently reside in the US. That doesn't include the illegal migrants from countries south of Mexico. We're being inundated with a group of migrants that show no desire to become part of American culture. We have an area here in Prescott Valley that is litteraly become a part of Mexico - no english is spoken, the stores all advertise in spanish, and I feel like I'm in a foreign country right here...at home.

It's getting almost funny - but it's not. My brother-in-law (a Yavapai County Sheriffs Deputy) responded to a head on accident between Cottonwood and Camp Verde - only to find the occupants of both vehicles had fled despite serious injury. Both vehicles were reported stolen, and witness said both drivers were hispanic...

Later
 
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Steve Curren

Explorer
I don't usually enter into discussions like this, I have learned that sex, politics and religon are not always good topics to keep good friends and neighbors. I have seen many results of the illegals, medical, criminal and the trash and destruction left behind. I do have compassion for the people who want to get out of a country that can't and won't take care of their citizens. We have the most liberal immigration policies of any country in the world, we have visas for migrant workers, we have a system for legal entry and millions have taken advantage of this and have waited their turn and entered legally and have become hard working citizens of this country. I believe that if it's against the law to enter this country without permission people who do so are breaking the law and are criminals. I know that most are just wanting to make a living and support their families and their country, some are using Social Security numbers belonging to others and that causes problems for the rightfull owners.
I am sorry for blowing steam and I do agree with most people when they say the illegals do contribute to this country in a manner, I just wish that we could better monitor our borders and protect our citizens. I am sorry if I have offended any of you but I guess I am just set in my ways and I believe that we need to stop the flow of illegals and drugs into our country.
 

VikingVince

Explorer
I hope my posting of economic facts above wasn't misconstrued. I totally agree with a guest worker program and stopping the flow of illegals. I just wanted to point out that much of the economic contribution of undocumented workers is underappreciated and "ripping off the system" doesn't occur to the extent everyone thinks it does. (I'm NOT a kneejerk liberal either!!!...nor a conservative...I'm a staunch independent!) Hey, I live in southern California...I see many of the same situations that many of you have mentioned...and it's often less than desirable.

But, as has been said, there are no easy answers. A guest worker program won't solve all problems and will likely create new ones...some guest workers will likely not go back, but will instead stay and become a new type of "illegal"...what are we going to do?...implant them with microchips so we can track them? Unlikely. And for those who want to set up domicile here, they will still come across the desert and enter illegally. I wish we could secure the border...for terrorism and drug concerns as well...but I'm not in favor of a fence either..
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
This is certainly a sticky subject but I believe that mature adults can agree to disagree:beer:

I'm sure that illegals contribute something to the economy, although it is hard to say just how much. Several different studies conflict with one another. Regardless of the net outcome of that money there is no way it is properly distributed amongst groups bearing the costs.

Agencies such as law enforcement and heathcare providers are not compensated adequately to offset the costs of services provided to illegals. The Federal Gov. owes States tens of millions of dollars in compensation and won't pay the States. The net affect is unfunded liabilities against small agency budgets which drain their effectiveness and effect the services they provide.

The band aid approach, pretending to "get tough", etc. hasn't worked. Something needs to be done, still, to stop the flow of ILLEGAL immigrants. If they are going to pay $3,000 each to a coyote, we might as well just collect that at the border and let them in with papers.

Where is the economic development package for Mexico? Why isn't this part of the debate? You cannot ignore the problem if you wish to find a solution.
 

VikingVince

Explorer
calamaridog said:
This is certainly a sticky subject but I believe that mature adults can agree to disagree:beer:

Disagree? I don't think we disagree on anything. I merely posted some FACTS...facts that should be considered in the formation of opinions, points of view, and yes...prejudices! (prejudices which we ALL have...especially those of us in CA, AZ, and NM!)

I believe your main point is that illegals create a net fiscal deficit. That is true...you are unequivocably correct! It is a FACT!!;) :eek: (about $10 billion in 2002) Please click and read the following:

www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec/html

(darn...the link won't go right to the article...so at the site click on Illegal Immigration, scroll down and click on the article, "The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget", then click on Executive Summary)

This is one of the most important statements in that link: "With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services."

Here's the most logical inferrence from that statement: If you grouped all legal, natural born Americans with similar low education levels, low incomes , and tax payments , THEY TOO WOULD CREATE A FISCAL DEFICIT because they use more health and social services than their incomes contribute.

And yes...I believe your implication is correct, i.e. that we can't continue taking in millions of immigrants who add billions to the fiscal deficit. Really, that is only common sense. That is why nations have immigration laws and standards. But also keep in mind the FACTS...and one other fact: although we are often faced with cultural differences, the overwhelming majority of illegals came here seeking a better life for themeselves and their families. I don't blame them for that. (I'd do the same for my family IF it was the only way out of debilitating poverty) I blame our government officials for short-sighted policies, actions, and INACTIONS that created the current situation. Now we have to live with it and, at the same time, FIX IT!!!
 
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flywgn

Explorer
expeditionswest said:
... I can't get free healthcare in Mexico....

Yes you can Scott. It's happened in our immediate family twice. Once was a serious dirtbike injury. No costs to any of us either time, and I can also document numerous visits by friends to medical facilities in San Felipe and in Mexicali with no costs.


DesertRose said:
...though I can't be sure the organic farms don't use illegal labor, it's less likely.

Being a partner in the organic-farming business I can tell you that, indeed, illegals are hired, and I'm not sure why it would be "less likely". Economics are economics. Our ranch/farm hires only two hands and both are documented aliens, but we know of circumstances where the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is applied.

One can review this country's history and see several instances when immigration was a flash point. Laws were passed, repealed, more passed, fine-tuned, inforced where easy, not inforced...it goes on and on.

We're not the easiest country to enter legally but no one wants to go to the ones that are.

We looked at a ranch for sale in southern Arizona about six years ago but when I saw the "foot highway" through one of the arroyos on the back side of the ranch I knew what we would be in for. We chose to eschew what was an incredibly attractive price--completely furnished also!

I liked Greenspan's article that VikingVince posted above. About ten years ago I heard Greenspan speak to a small group of people on the issue of immigration. His talk was about a half-hour. The Q&As went on for almost two hours!

The discouraging part was that he offered no solution to the escalating problem. At the end of the talk I turned to a friend sitting next to me and said, "If he doesn't have an answer, then I sure don't."

I've worked on the campaigns of Democrats and Republicans, and not one of the candidates ever came up with a solution.

As I came across the border last week--alone--I wasn't surprised when the Customs Agent scrutinized me more thoroughly. There I was, a single male, three days beard, a filthy truck, and me complete with aviator's shades. He accepted my stock reply to the "What are you bringing back?" question with "Dust and dirty clothes", but he wanted to have a look into the back of the truck and specifically checked out the large diesel tank in the front of the bed. The smell of diesel and the spillage on the filler spout seemed to satisfy him, so I didn't have to go into Secondary.

It was hot. 108°F. I was patient. I don't covet his job at all.

I'm not willing to go the Open Borders route. I think that would be too much of a Carte Blanche for all kinds of mischief. I do think a revisit of the "Bracero" program and perhaps some variation of that system is warranted.

Allen R
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
VikingVince said:
Disagree? I don't think we disagree on anything. I merely posted some FACTS...facts that should be considered in the formation of opinions, points of view, and yes...prejudices! (prejudices which we ALL have...especially those of us in CA, AZ, and NM!)

I don't mean specifically, that we disagree, just in general, that people in the thread as a whole may not see eye to eye on the entirety of the immigration debate.

Which is fine, because if we all agreed on everything it wouldn't be fun:jumping:

VikingVince said:
I blame our government officials for short-sighted policies, actions, and INACTIONS that created the current situation. Now we have to live with it and, at the same time, FIX IT!!!

I agree, and we are living with it every day, and every time we try to enjoy once pristine border areas.
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
flywgn said:
Being a partner in the organic-farming business I can tell you that, indeed, illegals are hired, and I'm not sure why it would be "less likely". Economics are economics. Our ranch/farm hires only two hands and both are documented aliens, but we know of circumstances where the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is applied.

Yeah, it was a dumb thing of me to say! Head in sand, I guess. Here in the Sonoran Desert we don't really have local farmers to supply us with small-time farm goods where we can know the farmer (and the "farmer's markets" are mostly boutique-y stuff like emu oil and vegetable re-sellers, rather than farmers).
 

DaktariEd

2005, 2006 Tech Course Champion: Expedition Trophy
Another take on the border damage issue:

**************************
Ranchers Add Ladders to Save Border Fences
From Associated Press
June 17, 2006 10:51 AM EDT

FALFURRIAS, Texas - A few Texas ranchers tired of costly repairs to cattle fences damaged by illegal immigrants have installed an easier route over the U.S.-Mexican border - ladders.

"It's an attempt to get them to use the ladders instead of tearing the fences," said Scott Pattinson, who owns one of a group of ranches known as La Copa.

La Copa is just south of a U.S. Border Patrol highway checkpoint that went up 75 miles from the border several years ago, sending migrants through the brambly scrub of nearby ranches instead.

Some immigrants walk for hours or days to skirt the checkpoints in temperatures hovering around 100 degrees. Their feet have worn visible paths through a forest of cactus and mesquite otherwise thick enough to conceal them from Border Patrol helicopters overhead and agents only a few hundred yards away.

The paths lead from one ripped-down section of fencing to another. Texas ranches can be so large it could be days before owners notice the hole in the fence, long after the livestock possibly escapes.

Paul Johnson protects his 2,700-acre exotic game ranch of zebras, scimitar-horned oryx and wildebeests with about 10 miles of high wire fence, and joined his neighbors in placing ladders along the way.

Border Patrol agent J. Kicklighter, who was patrolling the privately owned land this week, said he couldn't blame the ranchers for trying to protect their investment.

But apparently some immigrants think the ladders are too good to be true.

"They ignore it a lot," Johnson said. "They're afraid that they're monitored by the Border Patrol."

Johnson plans to take the ladders down, worried about the message he's sending.

"I think what it does is give a signal that we are wanting them to cross there, don't mind the crossing, and that kind of magnifies the problem," he said.

Rancher Michael Vickers never liked the ladder idea and instead has ringed his fence with 220 volts of electricity.

"I've had a dose of it myself, it's not fun," he said. "That's just my attitude, why make it easier for them to trespass?"
 

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