Commerical overland camper situation in USA/Canada
- Thread starter simon.winchester56
- Start date
109 Pretender
Observer
Charlie's right- the 'MaxiMog' at best is a perfect example of how a company parted a fool from his money. The engine choice alone speaks of inexperience related to what the chassis needs as well as how it would perform on a long trip. But, the company gave the owner what he wanted I suppose...
Another thought on why really big rigs are limited in the USA might be somewhat related to our DOT regs. Canada and Mexico and many other countries allow a lot more GVW on road than we allow for. Also you have to consider that most all roads eventually go across a bridge. Many offroad/fireroad trails have horrible bridges (the USA has a real crisis on this issue right now - even on our interstates).
Many big parks will not allow something like a Unimog or MAN because they are "classified" as over the road big rigs by the people who wrote and enforce the rules.
I believe that driving through the Darian Gap would be a lifetime adventure in itself if contemplating driving from USA to Patagonia for instance. (But, it would be newsworthy!). And if you skip 'the gap' by shipping the vehicle, extra complications arise because a MAN or Unimog won't fit in a container.
Above all else - Americans love convenience - in any form-everytime. The size, driving difficulities (parking, weight restrictions, road widths, etc), shipping complexities, unfamiliarity with the vehicle make (ie MAN or Mog) all conspire to dissuade the typical wealthy American from going this route.
Instead, they use a travel agent and do the luxury tour of choice - so much easier... AND convenient.
The true number of wealthy people worldwide that could afford such a vehicle system that also would visit this site (or something like the Hubb) is probably less than 1 or 2%.
Yeah, YOU Moggers and MANners are a very rare breed indeed! :victory:
Another thought on why really big rigs are limited in the USA might be somewhat related to our DOT regs. Canada and Mexico and many other countries allow a lot more GVW on road than we allow for. Also you have to consider that most all roads eventually go across a bridge. Many offroad/fireroad trails have horrible bridges (the USA has a real crisis on this issue right now - even on our interstates).
Many big parks will not allow something like a Unimog or MAN because they are "classified" as over the road big rigs by the people who wrote and enforce the rules.
I believe that driving through the Darian Gap would be a lifetime adventure in itself if contemplating driving from USA to Patagonia for instance. (But, it would be newsworthy!). And if you skip 'the gap' by shipping the vehicle, extra complications arise because a MAN or Unimog won't fit in a container.
Above all else - Americans love convenience - in any form-everytime. The size, driving difficulities (parking, weight restrictions, road widths, etc), shipping complexities, unfamiliarity with the vehicle make (ie MAN or Mog) all conspire to dissuade the typical wealthy American from going this route.
Instead, they use a travel agent and do the luxury tour of choice - so much easier... AND convenient.
The true number of wealthy people worldwide that could afford such a vehicle system that also would visit this site (or something like the Hubb) is probably less than 1 or 2%.
Yeah, YOU Moggers and MANners are a very rare breed indeed! :victory:
All,
Please re-read the Original Poster's initial question and keep the discussion on topic.
The OP was not asking about the status, practices or business details of any specific companies but rather a comparison between the North American and European markets for commercial overland vehicles.
Off-topic and derogatory posts will be removed.
To the OP, Simon - perhaps you could further explain your original quesiton and the bigger picture reasons behind it to help keep responses on topic.
Specifically, please give an example of what you mean by "commercial overland vehicles". What type, size and make of vehicles do you have in mind?
Also, an example of "market", private parties, tour businesses or rental businesses? This is a great topic.
Regards
Brian
Last edited:
simon.winchester56
New member
Clearing things up...
McVick,
To be honest, it was a matter of time before those comments were removed, but I don't think they were off topic, they were informative facts which the authour felt were in the interest of potential clients.
For clarification though:
Overland campers I mean vehicles commercially produced and marketed for the sole purpose of overland travel, companies such as ER, GXV, Unicat, Alaskan campers etc...
Market By this I mean to purchase as all the main companies do, I am not interested in renting etc.
Size etc As N.America has a wide range (like Europe), small over cab pick ups like Alaskan, to large vehicles such as GXV, it would be good to discuss them all and the options available, compared too Europe etc.
As I am plannning to move over to North America from Europe, it something which is important to me as I know over in N.A., choice is very limited compared to Europe.
I do have a copy of the original messages which were deleted regarding Earthroamer etc if anyone does want to view this, which is perfectly reasonable to want to do so being as it is critical if anyone is interested in buying from ER, then send me a PM and I'll get in touch.
Thanks, and I hope this clears things up a little.
SW56.
McVick,
To be honest, it was a matter of time before those comments were removed, but I don't think they were off topic, they were informative facts which the authour felt were in the interest of potential clients.
For clarification though:
Overland campers I mean vehicles commercially produced and marketed for the sole purpose of overland travel, companies such as ER, GXV, Unicat, Alaskan campers etc...
Market By this I mean to purchase as all the main companies do, I am not interested in renting etc.
Size etc As N.America has a wide range (like Europe), small over cab pick ups like Alaskan, to large vehicles such as GXV, it would be good to discuss them all and the options available, compared too Europe etc.
As I am plannning to move over to North America from Europe, it something which is important to me as I know over in N.A., choice is very limited compared to Europe.
I do have a copy of the original messages which were deleted regarding Earthroamer etc if anyone does want to view this, which is perfectly reasonable to want to do so being as it is critical if anyone is interested in buying from ER, then send me a PM and I'll get in touch.
Thanks, and I hope this clears things up a little.
SW56.
JKDetonator
Adventurer
Simon,
We look forward to your arrival in the States! Be sure to post up your travel plans and vehicle decisions. You already know my views! Good luck with your journey and be sure to contact me when you're in the vicinity.
Warmest Regards,
Derwin
We look forward to your arrival in the States! Be sure to post up your travel plans and vehicle decisions. You already know my views! Good luck with your journey and be sure to contact me when you're in the vicinity.
Warmest Regards,
Derwin
"small over cab pick ups like Alaskan"
Just as a point of information, Alaskan Campers products are not at the small end of the pickup camper range. They're for full size 2500 series trucks at a minimum.
Alaskan Campers differs from most slide-in camper manufacturers in that they are willing to undertake custom work. About the only aspect of their
camper that they are unwilling to change is the placement of the door at the rear bumper. (In other words, no door on the side of the vehicle.)
Here's a great example of a custom 10 foot Alaskan Camper on an F350 with 19.5 inch single rear wheels, prepared by forum member Carlyle
Read about the build here http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9502
This camper is a good example of a vehicle designed for North American conditions. You can cruise all day on the freeway at 80 mph, and still have the 4x4 clearance and capability to make it up a rutted fire road to a remote campsite.
Just as a point of information, Alaskan Campers products are not at the small end of the pickup camper range. They're for full size 2500 series trucks at a minimum.
Alaskan Campers differs from most slide-in camper manufacturers in that they are willing to undertake custom work. About the only aspect of their
camper that they are unwilling to change is the placement of the door at the rear bumper. (In other words, no door on the side of the vehicle.)
Here's a great example of a custom 10 foot Alaskan Camper on an F350 with 19.5 inch single rear wheels, prepared by forum member Carlyle
Read about the build here http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9502
This camper is a good example of a vehicle designed for North American conditions. You can cruise all day on the freeway at 80 mph, and still have the 4x4 clearance and capability to make it up a rutted fire road to a remote campsite.
simon.winchester56
New member
That's a pretty neat vehicle. About the "small", I mean it is the smallest size for my taste 
Any idea why they'll only have the door at the back even on a custom model?
SW
Any idea why they'll only have the door at the back even on a custom model?
SW
dzzz
™
First, in a pickup truck the side of the truck bed is in the way.
Second, fitting a door and getting it to seal on the side of a popup would be difficult.
If you look at unicat popup designs they show the uncompromising way to do it. Unicat has a used popup listed for 279,000 Euro. A flatbed Alaskan is a about $27,000 new.
Second, fitting a door and getting it to seal on the side of a popup would be difficult.
If you look at unicat popup designs they show the uncompromising way to do it. Unicat has a used popup listed for 279,000 Euro. A flatbed Alaskan is a about $27,000 new.
simon.winchester56
New member
Unicat lifting roof...
Thanks, I can see the issue with the truck bed side, however, in my opinion, the unicat method is far from uncompromising. It certainly has the sleek look with the lifting section fitting flush with the main wall, but at the expense of this look, the insulation in the top is compromised. The main wall has a foam sandwich thickness of 2 3/8" whereas the lifting roof area walls have a foam sandwich wall thickess of only 1 1/16". I think that this set up is a major compromise and I don't feel that they are too suitable for very cold environments. They are mainly used in areas like Africa and Asia where the cold is not too much of an issue. I wouldn't feel comfortable spending that amount of money on a vehicle which could turn out to have a major design compromise.
Just my opinion, don't know how you feel about that one.
SW
Thanks, I can see the issue with the truck bed side, however, in my opinion, the unicat method is far from uncompromising. It certainly has the sleek look with the lifting section fitting flush with the main wall, but at the expense of this look, the insulation in the top is compromised. The main wall has a foam sandwich thickness of 2 3/8" whereas the lifting roof area walls have a foam sandwich wall thickess of only 1 1/16". I think that this set up is a major compromise and I don't feel that they are too suitable for very cold environments. They are mainly used in areas like Africa and Asia where the cold is not too much of an issue. I wouldn't feel comfortable spending that amount of money on a vehicle which could turn out to have a major design compromise.
Just my opinion, don't know how you feel about that one.
SW
egn
Adventurer
First of all a lot of large class A RVs are running on your roads. And this class A ist typically much larger and heavier than a typical 6x6 overlander. Look at the measurements of mine in the signature. So the size weight shouldn't be the problem on typical roads and camp grounds.
Ok, no one would buy an overlander for so much money if he only drives to places where he can go to with a typical class A RV with a lot more comfort.
So the real question is whether there are a lot of desirable places in North America where one can go with a vehicle this size and use some of its capabilities for fun.
What places would be interesting:
- deserts areas
- remote areas only reachable by dirt roads
I think you have a lot of this places available, or am I wrong?
But the problem for the Americans may be that traveling only within North America doesn't have that much appeal to spend that much money on just a compared to a typical RV inconvenient overlander, and going just to somewhere in NA. When I look at the owners of the larger trucks in this forum, a lot of them are headed to regions outside NA. This seems to be the necessary justification to themself, and probably to others, to invest in a larger offroad truck.
Of course, this is not the only point. The length of vacation is certainly a further burden. I wouldn't drive several thousand miles to a nice offroad location with the comfort and the speed of truck with only two weeks vacation. This is just to much stress. I take typically 4-5 weeks off for vacation in order to have enough time.
So it may be really true that NA isn't the ideal market for building and selling large overlanders. I am sure the money is there. But it is spent more for adventures which can be done in a short time. And those having the time and doing full-time RVing are probably a bit older people are more concentrated on comfort than on real adventure with a large offroad overlander.
BTW, the turning circle of my truck is about 65 ft. This is not that large. And driving narrow roads and properly turning around at places that are not much larger than the length of the vehicle and blocking all other traffic is part of the fun driving such a vehicle. :victory: Of course my wife sitting at my side during such situations has a totally different opinion here. Here first sorrow when we are driving into a narrow road is whether we can turn around somewhere.
Ok, no one would buy an overlander for so much money if he only drives to places where he can go to with a typical class A RV with a lot more comfort.
So the real question is whether there are a lot of desirable places in North America where one can go with a vehicle this size and use some of its capabilities for fun.
What places would be interesting:
- deserts areas
- remote areas only reachable by dirt roads
I think you have a lot of this places available, or am I wrong?
But the problem for the Americans may be that traveling only within North America doesn't have that much appeal to spend that much money on just a compared to a typical RV inconvenient overlander, and going just to somewhere in NA. When I look at the owners of the larger trucks in this forum, a lot of them are headed to regions outside NA. This seems to be the necessary justification to themself, and probably to others, to invest in a larger offroad truck.
Of course, this is not the only point. The length of vacation is certainly a further burden. I wouldn't drive several thousand miles to a nice offroad location with the comfort and the speed of truck with only two weeks vacation. This is just to much stress. I take typically 4-5 weeks off for vacation in order to have enough time.
So it may be really true that NA isn't the ideal market for building and selling large overlanders. I am sure the money is there. But it is spent more for adventures which can be done in a short time. And those having the time and doing full-time RVing are probably a bit older people are more concentrated on comfort than on real adventure with a large offroad overlander.
BTW, the turning circle of my truck is about 65 ft. This is not that large. And driving narrow roads and properly turning around at places that are not much larger than the length of the vehicle and blocking all other traffic is part of the fun driving such a vehicle. :victory: Of course my wife sitting at my side during such situations has a totally different opinion here. Here first sorrow when we are driving into a narrow road is whether we can turn around somewhere.
egn
Adventurer
This and the problems that come up when the snow and ice is blocking the movement, was the reason why we don't go this way, even it is very attractive regarding height. We decided for a double floor in order to get enough storage space for a longterm voyage.
In a few years we want to travel also into colder regions in winter. And we wanted a vehicle that works fine there. Beside using a highly insulated cabin with highly insulated glass windows, we have done a lot to make the vehicle able to spent some time in temperatures as low as at least -22 F. Redundant methods of heating the cabin, large insulated and heated fuel tanks, heated filters, heated pipes, ... will give us the ability to stay in cold areas even a few months. Until then we have the chance to test and optimize everything.
T.Low
Expedition Leader
The California Backroad Discovery Route, the Oregon Backroad Discovery Route, the Washington Backroad Discovery Route for starters. Combine them and you have a decent backcountry route basically from Mexico to Canada.
The TAT, Owyhee, Baja, BC, Alaska, Copper Canyon, there's a lot of big space to use a big O'lander in N.A.
Bring it on, and stop by Bellingham (20 min south of the Canadian border) for a great micro brew.
The TAT, Owyhee, Baja, BC, Alaska, Copper Canyon, there's a lot of big space to use a big O'lander in N.A.
Bring it on, and stop by Bellingham (20 min south of the Canadian border) for a great micro brew.
dzzz
™
We've talked about the vacation issue before, but it's mostly a fallacy that it affects higher income individuals in the U.S. There is a really issue in the U.S. that many hourly and salaried employees don't get a properly healthy amount of vacation, but that doesn't affect the overland vehicle market. I expect the market for expensive class A type vehicle in the U.S. is huge compared to western Europe. So it's more a matter of style choice rather than vacation opportunity or disposable income.
In comparison to Australia I expect one of the major factors compared to the U.S. is the road system. I haven't been to OZ (yet) but I expect a class A size RV would be much more limited in that country than the U.S. Considering OZ is flat, dry, and warm compared to the U.S. their need for 4x4 commercial vehicles must be based on a relatively poor road system.
In Germany, of course, the was the beginning of modern highways by the late 1930's. You guys don't buy overland vehicles for use in Western Europe. You have the romance of driving to Africa. For North Americans it's about as costly to get to South America with a vehicle as it is to Europe. Between the Darien Gap and now the instability of central latin America we're a bit isolated. Exiting the continent in a vehicle is not a trivial matter.
But all that said you can see the split in interest here on expo forum between people interested in cultural travel and those interested in outdoor travel. Other than french Canadians we in North America do have a very large monolithic culture. I'm sure that affects vehicle choice and style. A large european style expo vehicle is designed as a portable fortress. American RV's aren't designed as a place of potential retreat.
It's an interesting topic because it involves so many aspects; culture, business, geography, regulation and more.