Disco Diesel Conversion

[X-plorenow]

In a previous thread I mentioned my engine problems after overheating in my 1997 Disco I. I am now considering buying a different Disco and possibly eventually do a diesel conversion in my original disco.

Has anyone doen this? Or have any thoughts?

 

[X-plorenow]

I have read that a 300TDI is the best option, and then probably a TD5, which is more expensive.

 

[Viggen]

This topic comes up all the time. I was about to do it but decided that I would keep my truck EPA legal. The 300tdi is not at all and since the Disco isnt a classic yet, they might care. Im going to go with a newer gas motor with more power at a lower rev range which will equate to lower strain on the motor and better range. Plus, newer motors are going to benefit from decades of design knowledge and development. This motor was originally produced in the 60s and then sold to Rover and really, not much about it has changed. Hell, I have an original version of the high compression Oldsmobile version built nicely in my garage waiting for a new home in an MGB.

If youre OBDII, you are illegal everywhere as you wont be able to make the OBD port read with the 300tdi and if you have emissions inspections, youll fail automatically once they get that plug inserted and nothing comes out. I have an OBDI D1 and could do it in Va as a legal gas to diesel swap but the motor is still US illegal.

How much are you willing to spend? The cost of a USED 300tdi motor and drivetrain is about $4500. Good used Rover V8 can be between $800 (3.9) and $2200 (GEMS 4.6). Then youre looking at the actual cost of conversion from gas to diesel and the pat answer is anywhere from $2200 to $5000 on top of the cost of the used drivetrain. So, $2200 for a good, low(ish) miles V8 that drops right in with no real headaches vs. $8000 to $10000 for a diesel conversion using a used drivetrain that will be tested but still comes as an unknown quantity from out of the country. How much gas will that buy you? Is the jump from 12 mpg (what Im getting in my heavily built D1) or 15 mpg to 18- 20 mpg worth THAT much money?

I myself voted no and will be going for a modern GM motor that will attach to the stock ZF trans. More power at lower revs, is a legal swap in an OBDI Disco anywhere in the country, will increase my range, and GM motors are CHEAP with parts availability anywhere.

 

[AxeAngel]

Two 4.6s with transmission going locally for 3k. Both gems motors.

Lemme know if you are interested.

-Sam

 

[X-plorenow]

Hi Sam,

Where is local? I might be interested.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[X-plorenow]

Sam,

How many miles?

 

[4Rescue]

Different states have different reg's eh... In Oregon I would just have to register my 4Runner as emissions compliant with whatever year the motor I swapped in was. I had planned a 1KZ-Te Swap that would have come from a 1990 JDM Spec Toyota (mine's an 89 N.American Spec 22RE) and was told it would go through no problem (several folks here have done various foriegn-diesel swaps) . Add to that the fact that I have another adress here in Oregon outside of the Portland Metro-Are'as inspection concern (no DEQ through out most of the state except in heavily populated areas) and I really wish I could have made it work financialy.

You kind of have to decide for your self if a Diesel is for you. They're different then gas motors in alot of ways and they have different driving charectaristics... Me??? I love'm. A 300TDi or TD5 converted Disco sounds sweet to my ears. THey're not going to wind out to 6K and to some it's counter intuitive to wait5 for boost to come on versus kicking down a few gears and running her up. I personaly LIKE the "tractor-Factor" of running a diesel and will be running one some-day.

Cheers

DAve

 

[AxeAngel]

East coast. Dunno all the details. Just got a PM yesterday fom the guy. Both gems motors, come with trannies. He wants 3k. One is available next week. The other end of the month I think.

You might be able to get a motor brought t you by someone going to LR rally. Would probably have to give them some $$ since it would take up a lot of room.

Or you could roadtrip.
-Sam

 

[antisoshal]

Some thoughts since I'm going through this (or starting to) at the moment with a 95 to avoid the OBDII issue. Good luck on a 97. Your chances of getting it registered and titled legally vary wildly by state, city and even county.

The one solution I've heard for most of the issues is to have the vehicle converted, then titled somewhere that simply doesn't care, like Illinois or Florida. Once you have the actual paper title in hand (takes months, I know), then very few municipalities won't have some sort of variance in place for bringing an existing legally titled vehicle into their jurisdiction. If you live somewhere that will require you to have an OBDII check due to the car being newer than 1995, good luck. No way around that really. They will simply refuse to allow the vehicle registration to be renewed.

As far as fuel economy, the previous poster might be underselling it a bit. I've spoken with folks with Diesel D1's that can fairly regularly get 25-28mpg on the highway. In the city it just depends on how much of a leadfoot you are. A Diesel wont go fast no matter what, and you pretty much have to floor it to be in a hurry, so your economy will suck like the V8. If you drive pretty conservatively like I do, you can probably expect no less than 18mpg and even 21-22 if you use some of the basic "hypermiling" techniques of good driving (i.e. stop accelerating twords green lights, accelerate gradually, coast when plausible).

I'm pursuing the Diesel conversion for reliability purposes, and to eventually convert to a dual fuel system using SVO. Not to be all hippy green and write blogs about driving on fry oil, but simply because it means that I will be capable of driving where I need to under a greater set of circumstances. It also means carrying jerry cans if extra fuel behind me is FAR less risky.

In the case of SVO, the older the engine the better, so a 300TDi is great. Newer engines are much less tolerant of PH and viscosity variances, and sadly most newer engines seem badly susceptible to the Methanol and Hexane left in Biodiesel during the manufacturing process. In particular I've rea of many people having issues with TD5's running Biodiesel and SVO. The SVO issues seem related to the viscosity and the PH corroding copper components of the delivery system.

 

[Viggen]

Then you start dealing with bringing in a motor that is not legal, regardless of what state you live in. The bottom line is that youre running an illegal in the US motor, regardless of year of Disco, and if your state decides to care, youre out a whole lot of money on the conversion and will be facing a fine. In Va, they dont care about diesel conversions as long as it is done to an ODB1, or earlier, vehicle. They do, however, care about the original market of the motor as the EPA tells them to. All you need is a random check and youre done. There are a few people who know, from first hand experience, that the EPA is paying attention.

On a stock Disco, you might get mid 20's. Build one and weigh it down with all the crap that most carry around, you wont get that. I would love a 300tdi in my truck but I dont want to drop the cash and then get caught. I also, enjoy getting to my location in a decent amount of time. The economy versus power availability trade off is just not there for me. Im not looking for a 0-60 rocket but when loaded down with gear, Ill take a gas motor and its ability to move at an acceptable rate, over a diesel all day long.

Again, add up the costs of a used, or even more expensive new, motor, diesel trans, diesel crossmember, accessories, etc... versus a gas motor. Even a brand new one and you will come out ahead every time. $4500 for just a used 90k- 100k mile diesel set up versus a V8 of some sort for half the price. Math wise, unless youre dead set on a diesel, it just doesnt work out. There are a few GM gas V8 kits out there for the D1s that will net you a more efficient, better designed motor that could return more mileage/ range and will run off of regular which is cheaper than diesel.

Bottom line, you do the math and decide whats best for you. Im not going to be doing water crossings all the time or spend thousands of miles through rural, rugged land (which doesnt exist in America, anyway). With a few jerry cans, you can go just about anywhere in America and never be far away from a fill up. Give me a completely, US legal diesel and I would find a way to get it in the Disco (barring the new, electronically technical ones). Until then, sticking with gas in the Disco is best for me. When I can class it as an antique, Ill think about the diesel again.

 

[antisoshal]

I'f you know of any "random" engine legality checks, I would like to know. I actually work for the DOT and have looked into this. So far, the only documented cases of the DOT and EPA getting involved in removing motor vehicles that I can find relate mostly to Nisan Skylines, and a few other illegally imported vehicles. I'm unaware of anyone who has had their vehicle removed form service by a federal action that wasn't related to the import of whole vehicles specifically NOT DOT and EPA tested. The EPA regulations for the engine do in fact make it illegal, no argument there. However they also implicitly state that as of now, anyway, they do not compel or require in any way that states enforce them. Simply put, they are effectively administrative law regarding what engines are used for production vehicles. They also serve as guidelines for what customs does and doesn't allow imported. There is also the tampering issue, which if literally enforced, probably makes 15% of the vehicles on the road illegal. Were you aware that not following your manufacturers requirements for tire types and even fuel can run afoul of tampering laws? The law is so vague as to be bordering on unenforceable. As far as I know, its never been federally enforced on an individual for a single vehicle, and has only been used when someone is making a business model out of circumventing emissions controls.

Your state may have other views and may or may not pick and choose what regulations to enforce or uphold. Some states have refused registration for vehicles based on engine, emissions, or even which way the wind blows. Your worst cases are the coasts, both East and West.

I'm just making that distinction because the EPA does not hunt down individuals who alter their vehicles. They have in the past cooperated with the DOT to locate significant quantities of vehicles that were imported illegally as a business model, simply to discourage that sort of thing. They have also come looking certain vehicles that were commonly imported, such as early smart cars, to discourage the individual from embarking on such an adventure. I wouldn't recommend starting a Diesel Discovery import service bragging that you are making road legal vehicles. I also wouldn't fear the EPA or DOT knocking on your door and taking away your birthday should you put a 300TDi in your truck. It will be your local bureaucrats doing that. I would gradually expect 300TDi engines to get harder to find. I think customs is doing a better and better job of stopping their import.

Keep in mind also that the EPA and DOT just finished accepting comments on rules looking to amend this rule to allow for individuals to be legally designated as "alternate fuel system installers" to allow for changing out vehicle engines for more efficient ones without violating tampering laws. They are aware there is an issue with the law. I'm not completely optimistic that it will change much for the better, but its a start.

I'm not doing my change for economic reasons and I'm fully aware that it will never pay for itself in ideal conditions. It's simply something I want and am willing to pay for. I would never recommend anyone do it simply to save money. It will never work.

 

[Maryland 110]

As far as weight goes, the 300 Tdi setup weighs 300 lbs more than the V8 you are removing so not a great deal of weight difference. In practice, not many "inspector" types as referred to above will think twice if the engine says Land Rover on top and the truck says Land Rover on the outside. Trust me, I deal with this daily and am intimately aware of epa and dot regs.

As far as importing an engine goes it boils down to what you put on the manifest. If you put 1995 Land Rover 300 Tdi Discovery diesel engine you might have an issue as this is a red flag. There are literally thousands of Tdi engines here and running the streets of America. While as Antisoshal says, they are "technically illegal", but so are tire size swaps as he so aptly pointed out. It boils down to this isn't a law that has been enforced- except in the widely publicised case of the Nissans. The only reason these engines aren't on the "legal" list is because Land Rover North America never asked/petitioned for them to be back then because they assumed we all wanted quiet smooth V8's due to our low fuel costs and the luxury icon they were pushing- obviously they were partially wrong. These engines in the UK had egr valves and cats so there is absolutely no reason they couldn't/wouldn't have been compliant here-LRNA just never asked. This has been an argument for about 1.5 decades now and those who have made the swaps are blissfully driving down the road and the nay sayers are still pointing their fingers. ECR openly documents gas-diesel swaps they do on their website-obviously EPA isn't knocking on their door or the work wouldn't be documented on their website. I'm actually in the middle of converting a diesel 110 over to a 4.2 Range Rover drive train for a client in California.
To each his own-its your money spend it as you choose.

 

[mongosd2]

well put doug...

 

[antisoshal]

What I would really like to do is talk to ANYONE who has had a vehicle properly titled in their state with a 300TDi and then moved to a stricter state and had the vehicle be refused registration. I suspect some have, but I think its probably more an ODBII issue since many states use OBDII readings as part of their safety inspection. Very few states test diesels at all, so once the vehicle is titled as such, I imagine the emissions part is a non issue. The safety inspections vary by state, and they are the reason I'm starting with a 1995 D1 so I can skip the whole OBDII issue. The parts to make a D1 or D2 diesel and OBDII compliant do exist, and I've had a few people claim they could do that job and make an OBDII compliant Discovery with a diesel engine, but its just more work and complication than I feel like going through because all the existing wiring for such a vehicle is RHD so the wiring would need to be custom fabricated for a LHD vehicle.

There have been a few other issues with the EPA/DOT going after cars, but its been whole vehicles imported illegally, and generally its been because importers were illegally claiming they had somehow found a way to make the vehicles legal. That sends up smoke signals and skyrockets eventually, because you are making money making false claims AND putting potentially unsafe vehicles on the road. In the case of the Smart and Skyline, neither came even close to meeting DOT safety standards, and the Skyline was nowhere near compliant emissions wise.

 

[Viggen]

When mine has reached the right age, Ill do a diesel swap as by that time, no one will really care. For right now, the price of regular is so low and the availability of good GM motors is so high, Ill stick with a more modern V6 (thinking about the 4.3) or V8. The legal/ illegal issue was never a worry for me as the odds of anyone catching on are very slim, as stated. Virginia, particularly NoVa, where I live, doesnt care as long as it isnt OBDII as that is what is required to inspect here. I dont think that the 85 or "85" and earlier Defenders, most of what is running around with diesel power, are a concern to anyone as it falls under the age exemption. People are bringing in all sorts of older sports cars that fall under the age exemption with motors that were never US market. The cost of a used drivetrain in 300tdi guise is almost as much as a new gas drivetrain. Economically, it just doesnt work out.

I guess you REALLY want to have a diesel in your truck to go through with it. For me, a gasser is easier and cheaper. Longevity is becoming less and less of a valid argument as modern gas motors are living an extremely long time due to better design and lubrication, improved cooling and materials selection. Hell, even newer direct injection gas motors are returning spectacular mileage. Add that to "displacement on demand" and you can have a gas motor returning near diesel mileage with more power available. Granted, that would be one serious swap (not too bad if you start with a complete parts car) but the option is there without worrying about title issues or moving. Look at a few states that are already coming out with newer, tougher, more EPA aligned rules. California is well known for theres but states in New England are catching up. Look at Conneticuts for example. There is no stated diesel exemption unless you weigh 10k+ pounds. Its only a matter of time is my guess....