Does Harmonic Balancer need replacment? Which do I buy? Question previous repair..

[redraif]

2001 Montero Sport XLS 3.0L Automatic 4wd...I'm at 245,000 now.

Posted at monterosportonline forums about the repair a friend did as well the harmonic balancer/crank pulley replacement, but no reply. So maybe you guys have some advise...

So here is Harmonic balancer issue I had at the tail end of July...http://msport97.proboards.com/thread/10907/opinions-sports-harmonic-balancer-repair

History: The timing belt was replaced at a shop not terribly long ago. 15,000-20,000 ago, but the o-ring behind water pump failed and it was replaced 2500 miles ago at the same shop (different tech). I believe the Harmonic Balancer had to come off for the water pump to be removed and this is wear the issue occurred. Tech did not torque harmonic balancer/crank pulley bolt back enough (he has since been fired btw...)

Long story shortish...
Not sure I trust the story of the emergency repair my friend did on the sport after the pulley backed off and I'm getting annoyed with him. I'm still in learning mode on the sport & these foreign motors, but there are some holes in his account of what he fixed.

I'm beginning to think it was just a simple case of the bolt backing out and he simply ran it back in. But I think he is embellishing to get more praise, as he keeps adding to the story. I'm a girl and you know how some guys are... The night of, it was towed to my buddies house. He said the HB bolt backed out, sheared off the key way on the balancer (woodruff key?) not the crank pin, and bent the timing cover a little. He says he made a new key way from scratch, cleaned up the spline and fixed the timing cover housing with a ball pin hammer. He said it looked like someone originally ran in the harmonic balancer/crank pulley bolt with the wrong socket size and might have assumed they torqued it enough but did not. He said he definitely torqued it down enough when he put it back on. He said probably too much. I said 135ft lbs and he said definitely more then that. Will this cause an issue? I started it up and the bolt looks steady and solid. Motor sounds good. No wobble from the harmonic balancer/crank pulley.

I asked about what things looked like when he took it apart. He said one of the tensioners would not release and he had to walk on the belt. Not sure which one he is referring too. From a youtube video I saw, the tensioners are not as straight forward as the domestics I'm familiar with, so maybe he did not know the procedure. Again it was in the shop 2500 miles ago... if they could have milked me for a bad tensioner they would have, so maybe he just didn't know this motor well enough.... Also he stated the lower gear was rusty and should be replaced. How if the timing belt is constantly riding on it??? Is this even something that is serviced and replaced on less a tooth breaks or chips? What really raised my spidey senses was when he said the sport had a timing chain. Ummm no! I verified this is what he meant to say... So I knew immediately he did not take it all the way down to the timing belt like he led me to believe.

So I started doubting the extent of the repairs... I researching the repair online. In other applications people have had to make new (woodruff keys?). That is not catastrophic. Is there one on the sport and where exactly does it ride? Where is a picture of one on our engines? Would the balancer backing off like mine did (above pic), shear the key? Is there a woodruff key or whatever the name is? Can I get the correct replacement one from the dealer? He says he made a keyway out of carbide steel. I hear that and think, End of a drill bit maybe??? Other people have had harmonic balancer/crank pulley Bolts back out and been tightened back down to proper specs and have been fine as long as they are torqued right. No mention of shearing keyways.

Another question, is the timing cover bending when the bolt backs out and the pulley starts to fall off? Is there one timing cover or two. The video I saw has me thinking there is a lower one around the harmonic balancer/crank pulley area. Is this one bendable? I keep researching and looking for an exploded diagram of the 3.0L and having no luck. Can anybody point me to a good diagram of the exploded motor parts with the names labeled?

Now because of this failure, I want to replace the harmonic balancer/crank pulley bolt and washer to be sure I have the Mitsu updated version... this is a no brainer... and I will get it done 100% (already talked to the shop that fixed the water pump 2500 miles before the HB bolt came out... they agreed they are liable for the bolt backing out and said they would replace the bolt and balancer for me for free if I brought in the Mitsu one. Tech who did my repair was fired... hmmm... bet I know why)

Now the question is about the harmonic balancer/crank pulley itself... I was thinking about swapping it for good measure. Its probably original. I was figuring it would be about $100.00. I about fell out of my chair when I saw this price... $257.44

http://mitsubishiparts.net/parts/20...leid=202711&diagram=F709060&diagramCallOut=32

Ok with a bad catalytic convertor that still needs to be replaced, this is a bit out of budget... gulp...

Can I go with one from the parts store? $109.99

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...assembly-594-056/15950102-P?searchTerm=pulley

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...=Search_02316_1440850_1385&pt=02316&ppt=C0332

http://www.autozone.com/external-en.../2001/6-cylinders-h-3-0l-mfi/309466_172580_0/

Or... Can I continue with my current one and inspect the rubber to be sure its ok? What do I look for? Is there a way to paint a line on it to show if there is excessive play in the 2 halves indicating the balancer rubber is on its way out. I bought this with 225,000 on it and I don't know if this is original or not.

Thanks for your thoughts and advise...

 

[redraif]

Yipes... no ideas? Was hoping to get the Harmonic balancer soon before the shop changes its mind... LOL!

 

[nckwltn]

Yikes! I didn't see that picture before... I don't recall anyone talking about needing to replace the balancer. I actually think it's less of a balancer and more of a crank shaft pulley.... although it does have some weight, so is probably doing some balancing.

You might have more problems than just the pulley/balancer. The timing gear on is between the pulley and the engine on the crank shaft snout, so the bolt came out or broke, the timing belt might have slipped... which could have caused valve + piston interference.

 

[BEG]

Wow, that looks like fun. The wodruff key is on the crank snout and locates the crank timing gear. The HB is located by a roll pin on the face of the crank gear. Here's a shot of what's behind the HB:

The square slot on the crank gear is where the woodruff key sits and the roll pin on the opposite side fits into a hole on the HB. In order to get to the woodruff key, you have to remove the lower timing cover and then the fact that there's a belt and not a chain would be obvious. The crank gear is pressed against the crank snout by the HB so if the bolt backed out and the crank gear slid all the way out and, I don't know, some weird combination of things happened, then yes, I suppose you could shear the key. But, at that point, your belt would have slipped and you'd have lots of other fun internal things to deal with.

The key is a relatively cheap thing to buy and comes in standard sizes. You just have to find the right size for yours. I believe it's 5mm x 9mm x 21mm.

With regard to the HB, there is a thin layer of rubber in there, IIRC. Yeah, it's pricy when it comes in a Mitsubishi branded box. I'm in the habit of always cross-referencing the numbers with Mopar (Dodge) parts since so many of the engine parts are identical. Just type in "Mopar" and then the part number and see what comes up. Here's one I found for under $100. Should be better than the aftermarket stuff quality since it's OEM.

Let us know how you make out.

 

[redraif]

Yikes! I didn't see that picture before... I don't recall anyone talking about needing to replace the balancer. I actually think it's less of a balancer and more of a crank shaft pulley.... although it does have some weight, so is probably doing some balancing.

You might have more problems than just the pulley/balancer. The timing gear on is between the pulley and the engine on the crank shaft snout, so the bolt came out or broke, the timing belt might have slipped... which could have caused valve + piston interference.

Yes I just realized I keep saying harmonic balancer... that was what the part was called on my Firebird. But is was more of a balancer then this. I should have said crank pulley. Will edit my post to make that more clear! LOL!

As far as the damage.... it was running perfect then squealed and things went wonky. Felt like it threw a belt. I dove into a gas station almost immediately after it started. So there was no excessive drive time in this condition. Well unless it was wobbling prior to the belt slip.

Truck was still running right power and lope. Friend took it and said bolt looked good. like it had simply back out. He said it had ruined the keyway but he made a new one. (woodruff key) Said the crankshaft appeared fine as did the gear. The gear was rusty was his only comment about it. timing cover had to be fixed with ball pein hammer. Cleaned up everything put it back together and it seems to run just as it did before the issue. Power level the same, same lope and even idle. No weird surges or bogs... had a check engine light prior and after. Catalytic convertor. Then the Check engine light went off for a bit and returned (as its been doing since we have been dealing with the cat issue). So I don't believe there was any timing slippage that would have cause a valve + piston issue.

 

[redraif]

Wow, that looks like fun. The wodruff key is on the crank snout and locates the crank timing gear. The HB is located by a roll pin on the face of the crank gear. Here's a shot of what's behind the HB:

The square slot on the crank gear is where the woodruff key sits and the roll pin on the opposite side fits into a hole on the HB. In order to get to the woodruff key, you have to remove the lower timing cover and then the fact that there's a belt and not a chain would be obvious. The crank gear is pressed against the crank snout by the HB so if the bolt backed out and the crank gear slid all the way out and, I don't know, some weird combination of things happened, then yes, I suppose you could shear the key. But, at that point, your belt would have slipped and you'd have lots of other fun internal things to deal with.

The key is a relatively cheap thing to buy and comes in standard sizes. You just have to find the right size for yours. I believe it's 5mm x 9mm x 21mm.

With regard to the HB, there is a thin layer of rubber in there, IIRC. Yeah, it's pricy when it comes in a Mitsubishi branded box. I'm in the habit of always cross-referencing the numbers with Mopar (Dodge) parts since so many of the engine parts are identical. Just type in "Mopar" and then the part number and see what comes up. Here's one I found for under $100. Should be better than the aftermarket stuff quality since it's OEM.

Let us know how you make out.

Ahhhhh... thank you for the picture! this is exactly what I needed to see! Now I can see what I'm trying to describe 3rd party! LOL! I will show him the pic to be sure I understand exactly what he did! Ok for some reason I got it in my head that the roll pin for the HB/crank pulley was on the crank shaft snout and not the crank/timing gear. Now its more clear! OK the roll pin is fine per my friend as is the crank. The gear is rusty. Not sure that matters?

Yes the part where you remove the lower timing cover and can clearly see the belt is what set off alarm bells. I watched that timing belt video on the sport and that hole in the story glared at me. That belt is so obvious. SO to even mess with the woodruff key that timing cover came off and he saw that belt... unless his story is fabricated or he had a brain fart and said chain and meant belt. Though I called him out on the chain and had an in depth conversation about chain wear versus belt wear and service time differing between the 2. Sounds like I will have to dive a bit deeper into the "story". Brain fart would be pretty hard on this one.

He says he made a replacement woodruff key. Hmmm... you indicate if it was destroyed, as he said, there was risk of timing slippage... the truck sure didn't act like the timing was off. it was still running good outside of the issues that were coming from the belts being slack & slipping on the pulley with it all catawampus.

OK brain is humming now. questions about the woodruff key.... By looking at a pulley on ebay, I see it does not extend into the HB/Crank pulley? so it sits only between the crank and crank gear? You said it locates the crank gear in orientation to the crank? How do you know you have that gear on in the correct orientation to the crank? Cause I'm having issues seeing the recess showing on the crank in relation to the slot on the gear. Could be the angle? But looking at the pic I would assume there is also gearing of sort on the crack snout that corresponds to those little divits on the inside of the crank gear? Ok you can see how crooked my pulley was sitting in the pic. As the bolt was backing out... Could just the vibration and odd angle tensions from the pulley slipping away from the gear and crank face have destroyed the woodruff key partially? maybe walking it partially out into the void where the pulley pulled away? like the whole assembly walked around a bit and the pin moved outward, but the orientation gear to crank was never lost, just the tip or portion of the woodruff key mangled? So the gear never moved, aka timing remained true? Sorry for the questions. Just working through this. I have never been into this rig or seen it apart in person. Sounds like I really need to... LOL!

Thank you for the cross reference info. I will keep that info in my back pocket. I never figured that would cross into the Montero family. Looks like I will visit Dodge on that pulley! Thank you again!

 

[BEG]

OK brain is humming now. questions about the woodruff key.... By looking at a pulley on ebay, I see it does not extend into the HB/Crank pulley?

Correct

so it sits only between the crank and crank gear?

Yup

You said it locates the crank gear in orientation to the crank?

Indeed

How do you know you have that gear on in the correct orientation to the crank?

This is what the woodruff key looks like:

The rounded part fits in a rounded slot (keyway) cut into the crank snout. The flat side of the key slides into the single slot you see on the crank gear. That slot runs the full length of the gear. The gear can only go on one way with the key installed, is a friction fit and it's mechanically locked in place.

But looking at the pic I would assume there is also gearing of sort on the crack snout that corresponds to those little divits on the inside of the crank gear?

Nope. Crank snout is smooth. The key is the only thing locating it.

Could just the vibration and odd angle tensions from the pulley slipping away from the gear and crank face have destroyed the woodruff key partially? maybe walking it partially out into the void where the pulley pulled away? like the whole assembly walked around a bit and the pin moved outward, but the orientation gear to crank was never lost, just the tip or portion of the woodruff key mangled? So the gear never moved, aka timing remained true?

Any number of things could have happened, but without a picture of the carnage, we can't say. What is most likely happening is that your friend is confusing the woodruff key (which is a hardened piece of steel) with the roll pin (which is a little piece of sheet metal rolled into a tube). A roll pin is easy enough to replace with any piece of similar diameter rod that is a tight enough fit, though not what I would recommend. In all likelihood, the bolt was an older design (got any pics of the bolt?) or was improperly installed, backed out enough to allow the crank pulley to turn independently of the crank, which then sheared the roll pin, which led to the pulley failure. All of this could have happened without the timing gear being affected at all. It's possible, then, that your friend removed the pulley, saw the sheared pin in the crank gear (this would not require removal of the timing belt cover, hence no obvious way to know it was a timing belt) and made a new one, but is mistakenly calling it a woodruff key.

My only question is, what is this business about hitting the timing cover with a ball pein hammer? The timing covers are all plastic. You can see the lower one in your pic (the black thing behind the wonky pulley).

 

[BEG]

Just for a little extra visual clarification, this is what the woodruff key looks like installed on the crank (not a Mitsu motor):

Woodruff keys rarely break cleanly. They often take chunks of the crankshaft snout with them:

That kind of damage requires rewelding the crank and cutting of a new keyway. That's why I think it's unlikely the woodruff key was involved at all. Especially if timing wasn't affected.

 

[redraif]

So the lower timing cover is plastic and not stamped steel? Wow.... Ok I'm going to be there when the shop owner takes this rig apart to replace things! Why do some guys think this is a cute way to behave towards women... Esp those who are legit trying to learn about their rig??? Unbelievable!

Thank you for giving me such a detailed explaination. This helps me tremendously! It sucks sometimes to be a visual learner!

 

[redraif]

With regard to the HB, there is a thin layer of rubber in there, IIRC. Yeah, it's pricy when it comes in a Mitsubishi branded box. I'm in the habit of always cross-referencing the numbers with Mopar (Dodge) parts since so many of the engine parts are identical. Just type in "Mopar" and then the part number and see what comes up. Here's one I found for under $100. Should be better than the aftermarket stuff quality since it's OEM.

Let us know how you make out.

So I went to Dodge to just see if the dealer could get it to avoid shipping.... well their system shows its a discontinued import only part. They can't do it.

So I will order it online.

On a side note... I'm soooooooo ticked at the local Mitsu dealer. They are Saab and Cadillac dealer as well. Way too snobby for mitsu. No one looked at us, smiled or said hello.

Then we stood at parts counter for 10 minutes and had to go to cashier to get the parts guy who was right there. Had to see us. Gave him my internet list with parts diagram and numbers. Had all parts numbers listed. Said I had to give him the VIN. Pulled out insurance car. He left with one piece of paper (part) @ a time and returned to say they did not have it and would have to order it. Can't order till Tues when manager in town. Then quoted me prices over msrp. Can't price match the internet prices. ******! Legit site. Not like ebay or a fly by night operation. Again does not know about price mayching. Tuesday an the boss will be in and can answer questions. But he has worked there for over 2.5 years he tells me. Ugh. Ordered nothing. I will take my business elsewhere. ToI bad that means an hour drive to another city.... gonna call first to be sure they are decent... lol! Or might just order online and pay shipping....

 

[PirateMcGee]

Order online....it's cheaper, faster and easier

 

[BOPOH]

So I went to Dodge to just see if the dealer could get it to avoid shipping.... well their system shows its a discontinued import only part. They can't do it.

So I will order it online.

On a side note... I'm soooooooo ticked at the local Mitsu dealer. They are Saab and Cadillac dealer as well. Way too snobby for mitsu. No one looked at us, smiled or said hello.

Then we stood at parts counter for 10 minutes and had to go to cashier to get the parts guy who was right there. Had to see us. Gave him my internet list with parts diagram and numbers. Had all parts numbers listed. Said I had to give him the VIN. Pulled out insurance car. He left with one piece of paper (part) @ a time and returned to say they did not have it and would have to order it. Can't order till Tues when manager in town. Then quoted me prices over msrp. Can't price match the internet prices. ******! Legit site. Not like ebay or a fly by night operation. Again does not know about price mayching. Tuesday an the boss will be in and can answer questions. But he has worked there for over 2.5 years he tells me. Ugh. Ordered nothing. I will take my business elsewhere. ToI bad that means an hour drive to another city.... gonna call first to be sure they are decent... lol! Or might just order online and pay shipping....

It's best to check with dealer for part numbers, i've used some website to get part numbers but all of them were listed as "discontinued import only part" but if you tell parts department what part you need they can find correct part number and probably cheaper too. This happen to me when i was order high pressure fuel line for my sport, online part number was close to $50 but dealer got it for $8 with USA part number