F --> 2F and other misc FJ55 Ramblings...

[ChuckB]

As some of you know I recently acquired a 1972 FJ55 in relatively good conidtion. Some pictures here (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7350).

The last couple of weeks I have been having some buyers remorse or so it seems. I have to admit this was somewhat of an impulse buy. Having previously sold my UZJ100 (LX470) about 4 weeks before the FJ55 purchase, then buying a KLR and subsequently selling that and buying the FJ55 because I just had to have it.

The 100 was sold because my wife and I carpool to work usually about 3-4 days a week in her car. So, having no kids and no real need for the 100 on the island here, it just sat in the garage most of the time. I also didn't picture the LX470 as my ideal expedition vehicle, although it was very VERY nice to drive, which made it somewhat easier to sell based on that reason alone in my mind. I guess I should mention at this point that I am a complete NOOB as far as expedition/overlanding is concerned, although I have been into Land Cruisers for a few years now. I just haven't had the opportunity to get out there just yet the way I see others on this forum doing. But I digress slighty.

So the 100 is sold, and I convince myself that since I don't really need a car, a nice dual-sport will work nicely for me. Motorcycling is something that I have always wanted to try regardless of how dangerous it might be. I find an outstanding KLR650 literally across the street from me and I buy. For various reasons mainly family concerns about my safety, I sell and only loose $50 on the deal, no harm no foul.

Then I see this FJ55 in the paper. Keep in mind I'm in Hawaii right now and these Cruisers don't come around very often. I tell the wife, if its less rusty than the FJ60 I used to have, then we should consider buying it. Its rare and in good shape blah blah blah... Meanwhile, I'm daydreaming about going to Moab or Baja and thinking this is the truck that I want to do it in. Needless to say the wife gets convinced and I make the purchase, at possibly a slightly higher price that what I might have felt comfortable with on the Mainland. But I'm in Hawaii right? Oh and by the way this was CA vehicle and there really isn't all the much rust on it and its only been in Hawaii for about 4 months. Perfect... it seems logical in my mind...

Ok, fast forward two months roughly to present. I finally realize after the initial shock wears off that this is somewhat more of a chore to drive in its current form than my old FJ60. Keep in mind its not a DD. No power steering and the 3-spd make it much more interesting. Suspension works pretty well for now and it has a front disc brake kit already installed so stopping is not really a problem.

Reading Andre's post in Hltoppr thread http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8880&page=3made really start thinking about my situation again.

I guess what I'm looking for is the experience, wisdom and advice of the collective group on ExPo. What would you do?

I have been debating with my wife about whether or not we should keep the 55. I know that if I keep it I'll definitely need to put some money into it to make it more comfy, 5-spd and power steering at at a bare minimum or one of the reasons I bought a pre-1975 was to eventually do a diesel conversion. My intention for this vehicle was to use it as a camping/overland type vehicle adhering to the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy. This is not to be a DD. I have to factor into the equation that once I move back to the Mainland next year, I will mostly likely have to purchase a DD if I decide to keep the 55 and my wife and I can no longer carpool.

I am in no rush to make a decision, I have made to many impulsive choices in the last couple of months. I am interested to see what the collective ExPo group thinks about my situation. Thank you for taking the time to read this extremely long rambling of a post.

 

[calamaridog]

Chuck,

If you sell the 55 you will regret it for sure. That thing is older than me, so it must be a classic

Doesn't the Navy pay to ship your vehicles back to the mainland? Then just get a DD when you get here...

Ultimately, do whatever makes the wife happy. She's a keeper too

 

[Hltoppr]

I know what you mean....it's hard to have to look at a vehicle and realize that you've got to add quite a bit to bring it up to "modern" specs....suspension, tires, seating, fuel injection, ignition, power steering etc....

It can get daunting...I've easily looked at putting $10-$15K into my rig...which seems like a lot.

Until you realize that you'll most likely be able to get that returned on your investment over the long run....I have no doubt that if I add about $7K to the 45, that I'll be able to sell it for significantly more than I have into it...it's nice to have a clean slate to work on and make your own, for your own needs, and not deal with the depreciation factor, which any new rig will do...

Take it a little bit at a time and try not to be overwhelmed!

-H- :arabia:

 

[calamaridog]

Take it a little bit at a time and try not to be overwhelmed!

Good advice for you Chuck. Mr. Impulsive!

 

[tacollie]

I am going through a similar issue right now. Mine doesn't run, but is near perfect. My dad just happens to have an extra 350 and 700r laying around. Which is making me want to keep the truck. Plus I have always wanted one and now I have one. A diesel would be cool, but I don't have access to one for free. I am starting to consider doing minimal work to it and using my taco for expedition and the 55 for a dd/weekend toy. Do the motor with some 63" chevy springs and power steering. Granted I drive minimally from day to day. I don't now if this helps, but those are my 55 ramblings. Just remember they are getting more rare every day and they hold their value.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Do you plan to drive it alot on the highway (55+ speeds)? If not I would save your coin on the 5 speed and work on some other improvements.

The F to 2F swap is extremely straighforward, very little modifications needed, and finding a running 2F might be a bit easier for you. If the F runs (did I read it did?) I would leave it in place, and swap a 4 speed transmission in place of the 3... Convert the existing 3spd TC to mate to the 4spd Trans and you have a little better low range (details here: http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/tech_4spdtrans_3spdtc.html)

Don't get me wrong, the H55F 5 speed is a great tranny, I've been running one in my 40 for coming up on 7 years now... I absolutely love it... but I spend alot of time on the highway enroute to trips, so the 5th gear is nice. That being said, it is a VERY costly upgrade, not only do you have to purchase the trans (~$2k new, $1500 rebuilt), you will also need a split style transfer case (~$200-300 used) as well as modified driveshaft flanges, floorpan for shifters and a crossmember. All things considered it can easily be a $3k upgrade... all for an ~15% overdrive I think you would be better served sticking with 4.10's in the axles (which it should currently have) and adding an ORION transfer case (~$1450 & avail. in 3:1 and 4:1). I guess it all depends on your usages.

Power steering is a definite biggy, lots of ways to go there, the cleanest/easiest IMO is either the Scout or FJ60, the Saginaw (while a better box IMO) is a bit harder to adapt to the FJ55 due to its frame setup, though it can and has been done.

Hope that helps!

 

[ChuckB]

Chuck,

If you sell the 55 you will regret it for sure. That thing is older than me, so it must be a classic

Doesn't the Navy pay to ship your vehicles back to the mainland? Then just get a DD when you get here...

Ultimately, do whatever makes the wife happy. She's a keeper too

Bryan,

I know in the back of my mind I'll regret it if I sell it. Its also older than me which means its vintage as far as I'm concerned!!!

I believe starting OCT 1 of this year the Navy will now pay to ship 2 cars, so I'm pretty good as far as that is concerned.

The wife is definitely weighing in on this topic. But, she is DEFINITELY a keeper!!!!

I know what you mean....it's hard to have to look at a vehicle and realize that you've got to add quite a bit to bring it up to "modern" specs....suspension, tires, seating, fuel injection, ignition, power steering etc....

It can get daunting...I've easily looked at putting $10-$15K into my rig...which seems like a lot.

Until you realize that you'll most likely be able to get that returned on your investment over the long run....I have no doubt that if I add about $7K to the 45, that I'll be able to sell it for significantly more than I have into it...it's nice to have a clean slate to work on and make your own, for your own needs, and not deal with the depreciation factor, which any new rig will do...

Take it a little bit at a time and try not to be overwhelmed!

H,

Thanks that is good advice. One thing I do have going for me is the 55's are pretty rare. When I think about upgrading I often come to that moral dilemma about whether or not to keep it all Toyota or go with Cumming/SBC etc. I think I need step back and take it a little slower. I can dream about diesels all day long but that is easily a $20K transaction.
It really hit home yesterday when i calculated my first tank of gas and it come out to 10.05 mpg. Now I don't now if that's 100% accurate because I'm running stock 3-spd, 4.11's and 245/65/16s??
Will an H55F both upto an F engine pretty easily? I know the differences between the pre-85 FJ60's and the 5-spd but not too familiar with this F engine?

I am going through a similar issue right now. Mine doesn't run, but is near perfect. My dad just happens to have an extra 350 and 700r laying around. Which is making me want to keep the truck. Plus I have always wanted one and now I have one. A diesel would be cool, but I don't have access to one for free. I am starting to consider doing minimal work to it and using my taco for expedition and the 55 for a dd/weekend toy. Do the motor with some 63" chevy springs and power steering. Granted I drive minimally from day to day. I don't now if this helps, but those are my 55 ramblings. Just remember they are getting more rare every day and they hold their value.

Having access to a SBC would definitely make the choice a little easier for me. Financially this is especially stressful for me because as I failed to mention earlier I'm getting out the Navy next NOV '08 and my job situation is a little up in the air at the moment. I definitely cannot afford any kind of crazy mods in the near future. Maybe that is a blessing in disguise and I should just drive and enjoy for now. However, having to make a 5 point turn just to get out of my driveway is a little annoying.
All daydreaming aside I think having PS and a 5-spd would probably turn my make a huge difference.
I think this is the point where I need to start learning to wrench with a few more bananas!! It also would be nice to live a little closer to some ExPo members to get some hands on learning.

I'm not even going to breach the daily driver subject, that is a whole other thread in itself.

Keep the input coming. I'm relying on all of you to be the rational ones :violent-smiley-031:

Any reason to even consider an F --> 2F swap?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Will an H55F both upto an F engine pretty easily? I know the differences between the pre-85 FJ60's and the 5-spd but not too familiar with this F engine? ...

Yes, using the bellhousing from a 4spd. The F/2F/3F all share the same bellhousing pattern at the motor

However, as noted in my earlier post, you will also need a different transfer case, driveline flanges, drivelines will have to be lengthened (front) and shortened (rear), etc.

...Any reason to even consider an F --> 2F swap?

Not if your F runs decent. All of the upgraded 2F components such as the carb can be retrofitted to your F. Their are other subtle changes that make the 2F a better powerplant, but none valid enough to swap out a running motor IMO.

To put it in perspective... a healthy F motor and 2F motor in similar shape, running condition will "feel" about the same powerwise in my experience.

 

[ChuckB]

Do you plan to drive it alot on the highway (55+ speeds)? If not I would save your coin on the 5 speed and work on some other improvements.

The F to 2F swap is extremely straighforward, very little modifications needed, and finding a running 2F might be a bit easier for you. If the F runs (did I read it did?) I would leave it in place, and swap a 4 speed transmission in place of the 3... Convert the existing 3spd TC to mate to the 4spd Trans and you have a little better low range (details here: http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/tech_4spdtrans_3spdtc.html)

Don't get me wrong, the H55F 5 speed is a great tranny, I've been running one in my 40 for coming up on 7 years now... I absolutely love it... but I spend alot of time on the highway enroute to trips, so the 5th gear is nice. That being said, it is a VERY costly upgrade, not only do you have to purchase the trans (~$2k new, $1500 rebuilt), you will also need a split style transfer case (~$200-300 used) as well as modified driveshaft flanges, floorpan for shifters and a crossmember. All things considered it can easily be a $3k upgrade... all for an ~15% overdrive I think you would be better served sticking with 4.10's in the axles (which it should currently have) and adding an ORION transfer case (~$1450 & avail. in 3:1 and 4:1). I guess it all depends on your usages.

Power steering is a definite biggy, lots of ways to go there, the cleanest/easiest IMO is either the Scout or FJ60, the Saginaw (while a better box IMO) is a bit harder to adapt to the FJ55 due to its frame setup, though it can and has been done.

Hope that helps!

Kurt,

Looks like I was typing while you posted. Thanks for the link and info, I just learned a bunch!!

To answer your question the F is definitely running and I will absolutely use it on the freeway. When I had my 60, it had stock gears and tranny and toward the end I had 32x11.5 BFG ATs on it. It cruised great in the flats but long hills were definitely a chore. I can tell that having 4.10 really does make a huge difference in the 55 as far as hills are concernced but I end up sitting right about 3000rpms on the freeway at approx. 60 mph with the 3 spd. I think the redline is 4000 on the F, but I don't feel comfortable going above 3000 rpms anyway due to the roar of the F and the speed limit here is 55 mph.
I don't know too much about the Orion cases as my wheeling experience is pretty limited. What advantage does that do for me?
Your advice is to keep the F motor unless its totally shot? (answer = YES)

(edit) we are playing post tag

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Kurt,

Looks like I was typing while you posted. Thanks for the link and info, I just learned a bunch!!

To answer your question the F is definitely running and I will absolutely use it on the freeway. When I had my 60, it had stock gears and tranny and toward the end I had 32x11.5 BFG ATs on it. It cruised great in the flats but long hills were definitely a chore. I can tell that having 4.10 really does make a huge difference in the 55 as far as hills are concernced but I end up sitting right about 3000rpms on the freeway at approx. 60 mph with the 3 spd. I think the redline is 4000 on the F, but I don't feel comfortable going above 3000 rpms anyway due to the roar of the F and the speed limit here is 55 mph.
I don't know too much about the Orion cases as my wheeling experience is pretty limited. What advantage does that do for me?
Your advice is to keep the F motor unless its totally shot? (answer = YES)

(edit) we are playing post tag

Chuck, keep in mind that you will get a bit of "rubber overdrive" when you install larger tires on the FJ55 (if that is part of your build plans). That alone might be enough to make you feel a bit more comfortable about the speeds/RPMS.

The ORION is just plain cool I have some info here: http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/advadapt.html

Basically it is a 100% bolt in swap (no driveline length changes, flanges swap, etc). Long story short it gives you the same 1:1 in high range, and an amazine 3:1 or 4:1 (both available) in low range. That versus your current 2.3:1 low range. In addition they are alot stronger & quieter than a stock case.

 

[ChuckB]

In addition they are alot stronger & quieter than a stock case.

I plan on atleast going to 33x9.5s at some point. I definitely noticed the "rubber overdrive" on the 60.

I'm all about making it stronger and more reliable. I'll have to keep the ORION TC in mind. Thanks alot I am crawling all over your site as I type this.

 

[KMR]

FWIW, I would say that if you want a 4 door, vintage, unique, super cool expo vehicle, then there is no reason not to stay with the 55.
Especially if someone else will foot the bill to get it to the mainland.

You would have a hard time getting anything cooler than the 55 and you would have a hard time finding anything easier to mod the way you want. That truck is like a blank canvass, might be a bit daunting at first, but you can really make it your own.
I say congrats on a great find.

 

[ChuckB]

UPDATE:

Had a long serious talk with the Boss on the way home last night after reading several of the replys. The bottom line is that we came to the agreement that we will keep the 55. I promised not to touch the motor until it dies a natural death... could be a while. I have come to the realization that I do not "need" a diesel, I want a diesel. What an epiphany!! Therefore, I'm going to scale back my pursuit of a conversion for now and focus on some of the things that need to be done to bring the 55 up to par. One step at a time.

The short list is:

1) figure out why both rear passenger windows are really hard to roll down
2) fix driver side door hinge
3) fix driver front rusty body mount
4) add power steering

Then I'll think about adding a 4 or 5-spd.

The wife really wants to get an 80 or 100 for a DD. But I'm against that at this point because of the above reasons for which we sold the previous 100. I promised her that we would look into a 100 once we have our first child and her Saab gives up the ghost. She also gave me permission to get a DD when we get back to the mainland!! Gotta love her :wings:

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Too funny this is a good thread! Anyway I think we've all been close to it with been/there done that too particular with wife (in my case my 6 year GF/finacee) and discussions on what to do. She is very into too but definetely has the voice of reason She wants a 45 pickup some day which sure would be cool to build her

Anyway my thoughts are to move slowely. I would persue the rubber overdrive option probably first, 33 x 9.5 or 10.5 and use it as a DDer. It will feel and look cooler and perform better on the highway. The F engine is a toss up. Some people religiously swear by them particularly at low altitude where you are. When I was in college in Vermont the local dfie hard cruiserheads almost preferred them and wheeled them hard and used them many many years. I would perhaps take that natural death idea but again it is a toss up.

The theory on engine swaps is anticipate them costing twice as much and taking twice as long to do... Which is about right...

The F engines really a great engine and are rock solid, just super old school by comparison. If the body really is pretty good then you have a keeper IMO, that is hte most important part and the rest is fairly replaceable The 4 speed does go a long way but it optional too. I would do the power steering swap, that is probably your first step I think along with the bigger tires. See if you can befriend someone with a welder and some auto experience and talk him into a couple $$ and a weekend to do it or you guys do it together. You can do either the saginaw or better yet a FJ60 steering box setup. The FJ60 and 55 steering shafts interchange and use the same size flanges. Because you are not on the freeway too much I think its a great candidate. They take a lot to get them into good solid DDer status by mainland current vehicle standards. But I think its worth it, it is a cool old unique old truck...

The Orion is a great addition but if you are not off roading too much I'd probably leave it where it is. The 4 speed is nice and most importantly shifts well. The 3 speed and 4 speed have the same top gear. The 4 speed starts slower and gets there a little more comfortably. Also see if you can befriend some vintage cruiserheads there too, there have got to be some that know what they are doing. My previous '55 was a '71 and this one is a '69. Be forwarned, they are addictive! Cheers, A

 

[ChuckB]

Andre,

I was hoping that you would chime in at some point. I have read and re-read through your build-ups so many times, I think that I look through them on almost a daily basis. What a minute... its your fault I want a diesel in the first place
Seriously though, I think it makes the most sense to upgrade the things you mentioned and take it from there. Then I can acutually start taking it on trips and then decide where I want to go with the other mods. I would have put the 33s on already but the current BFGs have a lot of tread on them as is. Also, at some point the previous owner put 16" wheels on the piggy, probably when he did the front disc break conversion.
I'm looking forward to see the completion of your '69 55!