From Scratch

[snollygoster86]

Here is a puzzle. I want to build something from scratch. Has anyone used a similar recipe to the one listed below (and retained the receipts)?

(I know, as someone put it to me on Mud, that this is like asking: "how long is a piece of string?" 10-4. I just wanna hear ball park figures.)

The goal is to build an expedition truck something short of MaxiMog (http://maximog.com) and something more than the general TLC Icon builds. Fit and finish on Icon is perfect, but I can´t afford to pay someone else to have all the fun building (no sarcasm). I suppose if I have to ask I shouldn´t even start but here goes anyway.

Help me estimate costs:

-Toyota -J-45 frame
-diesel motor*
-transmission*
-transfer case*
-suspension*
-Toyota pickup cab late 40s series
-Unimog portal axles* (crazy?)
-locking differentials
-compressor
-CTIS
-heater
-ac
-duel battery system
-fuel tanks
-water tank
-air tank
-generator (plus gas tank) (wind, solar possibilities)*
-custom camper rig (pop-up, bed, sink with purifier, stove, refrigerator, work station for camera gear and laptop, internal storage, external storage ((including a place for my mountain bike)), lighting, security, insulation, heater, ac, etc etc.)
-custom cab interior (roll cage, cpu for truck, gps with dedicated screen, stereo, communications, backup analogue gauges, all water proof, .etc)
-plus details (winch, recovery eqp., air horn, roof rack, lights, tools, spares, snorkel and breathers, sliders and skid plates, security glass, dog etc etc.)


*research required:

I like the idea of bio-diesel if such a thing could be made convertible for regular diesel in a pinch if need be. Also, with the added weight of the camper and equipment I´m not sure of hp requirements. I like the International 2.8L TLC and others use but I think it lacks enough power for this application.

The transmission depends on the motor and axles. Same with the transfer case.

Suspension. I don´t want a rock crawler but I do need articulation and durability enough to be able to leave the road fearlessly. Depends on the axles.

Generator. Certainly necessary if I plan on using my heating and cooling when stopped. Also, since almost everything will be stored internally the roof of the camper ought to be free for solar panels. I haven´t checked lately, but they are getting pretty potent and a meter or so might help cover energy needs on sunny days. I´ll also look into a mast mounted turbine generator. Both these last ideas are unreliable sources but may be good backups just in case.

 

[the dude]

I wouldn't be able to do that build for under $50 large and I have half that stuff.

The details get expensive.

I would work off a 60 series frame (lots around) and go with the 40 series body.

Not sure about mog axles but I would definitely link the rear on air bags. How big of tire/rig are you looking at? That would determine my axle choice.

If you are looking at keeping it all toyota, 1HZ with turbo, 5 spd, toybox, split case, 60 series axles with longs and all the goodies including lockers.

Throw that under a troopy with linked suspension and I would have my ideal truck...well one of them anyways.

 

[toyrunner95]

This is a very intrigiging. But I can't help but ask. Why start from the frame up? That is seriously a project. And im not talking about your normal every day project; I mean wow, you are a man of vision.

I admire the fact that you are willing to take on such a project. I also like the thought of being able to customize the entire thing.

But I have to agree with the afore mentioned. The devil is in the details. It's that box of washers and those little pieces here and there that are going to make the price skyrocket.

You may want to start with a beat up 60 series and strip it down to the frame, then go from there. If it's a rolling chassis then you got the axels and the suspension setup. Now if you want something slick I say get a wrecked 80 series with the 4link already setup. Decent full float rears in some. Diesel options, good eletrical system, and lots of aftermarket. Cabs for these with a little modification could be just about anything. a 40, 45, 60, 70, anything! If you are going far enough to do all that work a few more mounting brackets cant be that hard. The jeep style frame ends could come in handy as well if you strap a 40 series to the frame.

If you want to see something cool check out the outback challange threads.
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14218&highlight=outback+challange

That lc 70 is a perfect example of what you might want.

 

[Jeep]

I've built several from the frame up and I fully agree with the Dude. 50K will get you started. I'd budget for another 50K to see it through and that's without throwing a retail labor rate in there. I was on a similar path because we have the ability and facility but I am going to save a ton of cash and just build a really nice camper that will be permanently mounted to my 04 Dodge 2500, and I'll buy a smaller more economical 1/2 ton for a commuter. Even with the cost of picking up a nice used low mileage 1/2 ton, it will still be more economical. That said, there have been some really nice Toyotas popping up for less than the rebuild or restoration would cost, that might save you a pile of cash and get your project finished faster, although there is a ton of satisfaction in doing what you propose, and it all depends on what value that has to you.
Good luck,
Mark.

BTW I have a near new set of Mog 404's sitting in my shop if you want, I had a similar vision not all that long ago!

 

[troy]

I like what some of the others are saying abuot starting with a 60 or 80 series frame with suspension. I would think that with some shopping you could get it for a decent price. Since you aren't using the body, rust and high mileage aren't as big of a concern.

For the diesel swap, I'd consider picking up a late 90's diesel truck from GM, Dodge, or Ford. It should have enough power, is turbocharged and the Engine, trans, t-case should be stout enough for this application. Parts are very accesible, so servicing would be easier. The price of these trucks have been dropping recently and I've seen several with only 100K on them going for $4-6K. Buying the whole vehicle would help cut down on the little odds and ends that drive up the price of the build. I would stay away from the newer ones with complex emissions equipment and anti-theft systems such as the GM Duramax. Not saying they wouldn't be great, but they would add cost and coplexity to the build.

It also helps to stick with items that have a good aftermarket. This will cut down on trial and errror for custom set-ups as you will have plenty to do anyway. With using a toyota frame and suspension, you can tap the already existing upgrades availble. There is also a huge aftermarket for the diesel engines mentioned above. In theory you should be able to purchase items and know they will work.

 

[nickw]

Here is a puzzle. I want to build something from scratch. Has anyone used a similar recipe to the one listed below (and retained the receipts)?

(I know, as someone put it to me on Mud, that this is like asking: "how long is a piece of string?" 10-4. I just wanna hear ball park figures.)

The goal is to build an expedition truck something short of MaxiMog (http://maximog.com) and something more than the general TLC Icon builds. Fit and finish on Icon is perfect, but I can´t afford to pay someone else to have all the fun building (no sarcasm). I suppose if I have to ask I shouldn´t even start but here goes anyway.

Help me estimate costs:

-Toyota -J-45 frame
-diesel motor*
-transmission*
-transfer case*
-suspension*
-Toyota pickup cab late 40s series
-Unimog portal axles* (crazy?)
-locking differentials
-compressor
-CTIS
-heater
-ac
-duel battery system
-fuel tanks
-water tank
-air tank
-generator (plus gas tank) (wind, solar possibilities)*
-custom camper rig (pop-up, bed, sink with purifier, stove, refrigerator, work station for camera gear and laptop, internal storage, external storage ((including a place for my mountain bike)), lighting, security, insulation, heater, ac, etc etc.)
-custom cab interior (roll cage, cpu for truck, gps with dedicated screen, stereo, communications, backup analogue gauges, all water proof, .etc)
-plus details (winch, recovery eqp., air horn, roof rack, lights, tools, spares, snorkel and breathers, sliders and skid plates, security glass, dog etc etc.)


*research required:

I like the idea of bio-diesel if such a thing could be made convertible for regular diesel in a pinch if need be. Also, with the added weight of the camper and equipment I´m not sure of hp requirements. I like the International 2.8L TLC and others use but I think it lacks enough power for this application.

The transmission depends on the motor and axles. Same with the transfer case.

Suspension. I don´t want a rock crawler but I do need articulation and durability enough to be able to leave the road fearlessly. Depends on the axles.

Generator. Certainly necessary if I plan on using my heating and cooling when stopped. Also, since almost everything will be stored internally the roof of the camper ought to be free for solar panels. I haven´t checked lately, but they are getting pretty potent and a meter or so might help cover energy needs on sunny days. I´ll also look into a mast mounted turbine generator. Both these last ideas are unreliable sources but may be good backups just in case.

I have always thought about doing the same thing, I would guesstimate (based on standard labor rates and what ICON charges for a complete vehicle) approx. $80,000 if you do the majority of the work.

It would be paramount to most of the work yourself, because if anything went wrong you would NEED to know how to fix her.

Your missing alot of things from the list, the small things are what get you. Not to be a buzzkill, but unless you have all the cash up front (or a very nice paying job), the chances of consistently putting $3,000 a month into a project like this is slim.

More power to you if you can pull it off, just trying to be realistic.

I think you would be much better served to find a nice clean FJ45/40/troopy and drop in a cummins 4bt and nv4500 along with some upgrades. That would run you in the $40K's.

 

[snollygoster86]

reply

Thanks for the feedback, one and all.

I know it´s an ambitious project, and I certainly don´t have the wherewithal to put it together right now, but planning is half the battle and it´s free if you´re the one doing the R&D (ya´ll don´t hurt my chances much either. Praise to the open-source community, and the free information gods!). In my experience it´s also a good deal cheaper to work things out well in advance run than in a rush or on the fly.

In line with much of the advice posted I will of course be using as much off-the-shelf material as I can with an eye for the after market and local markets as well. It´s the combining of the best stock equipment that makes the best vehicles. It´s no use to have a Frankenstein, machine-shop-special, moon-rover-expensive truck in the places where we drive these things. Redundancy and easy replacement and repair with local bits has to be assumed. (I intend to go all out on the cpu (the one thing I intend to fully out-source). But it will not be, in any way, a mission critical part of the vehicle. There will be full analogue backup of all important gauges and sensors. Hell, I might even carry a compass.)

I don´t have some sort of extensive experience with tyres but I´ve heard wonderful things about the Michelin XZLs. (I´ve also heard they can´t be had right now. But that´s another thing, this is a long term project.) Size depends on the gear ratios of just about everything in the drive train, which is still entirely an unknown. I need to run the numbers on all the viable options yet.

I don´t have a problem with Toyota´s quality of axles, just their design. If I´m going all out then I want portals (hell, why not? this is all still just a bunch of theory) (research required of course). Clearance with portals is just amazing. I won´t be attending many rock crawling competitions. And I also like portals because they take a lot of the abuse the drive train normally absorbs and take it on themselves; an okay trade-off because they´re stout equipment, not at all likely to fail, and relatively serviceable in any case, if expensive. I´d rather work on axles than transmissions or motors in the middle of nowhere any day. (And what´s expensive anyway? We´re comparing portals to straight, then yeah, okay. But is that really a comparison? It´s more of a juxtaposition. The clearance is worth it if you´ve seen the "roads" out there in this wide world.)

Airbags are a good call of course.

 

[cumminscruiser]

from scratch

FJ60
cummins 6BT5.9
NV4500 transmission
FJ62 running gear and transfercase
shorten the back of the 60 by 12inches
shorten the roof height by 4"
spring over
36" BFgoodrich TAs
........

 

[Harald Hansen]

Check out The New Cruiser. They built theirs from the frame up, including fabricating a one-off aluminum body.