Greetings and a question

[Jeffrey_A]

Hi all, thanks for having me.

Short intro, then onto the question.

Middle age white guy with a better woman and dog than I deserve. Live in Payson AZ, a stones throw from Mormon Lake, so will be at Overland West in May.

Have a 2015 JKU and a little guy 5 wide rough rider. Mostly point to point for the Little Guy as long as it involves places most can't / wont go with their RV or travel trailer. Well, just past that point, about five six miles is good.



When we started building the Jeep the goal was no lift. Decided lift is now in order. Will be using the Rock Krawler Mid arm with Bilstien 5100 shocks at 2.5". Had long ago decided 33" would be better for us. That gets installed later this week. Should just about finish the Jeep. (Already has full armor, bumpers, winch, etc)

Here is where I am running into trouble. The tongue weight of the Little Guy is a fair amount. The springs with the lift are progressive. With the current rear springs, TeraFlex Level, it sags when the trailer is attached. Not enough to be dangerous, etc but enough to be a bother. I will be reworking the front end of the trailer to remove / relocate some weight. Has anybody ever figured a way to have full articulation with air bags or do they just get shredded? Is there another option out there? Adjustable bump stops, summo springs, spring rubbers to pull in and out? I have even thought maybe Fox air (Nitrogen) shocks?

I know folks must have hit this stumble before? Need some adjustable method to account for the tongue weight. Concerned that even with the progressive springs it will still be an issue. Yes, I did a forum search but not really finding the answer.

Really don't want to spring the Jeep for trailer weight as that would be no good without trailer. Help?

Again, thanks for having me and sorry if this has been answered before and my search juju is weak.

 

[TxJprs]

Yes, a progressive spring is going to handle the weight better.

 

[Zeep]

What is it that sold you on that particular lift?

 

[Jeffrey_A]

Zepp: I expect the progressive will do "better." Concerned about the sag under weight. I am curious if anybody has a solution to an adjustable spring rate as load dictates?

TxJprs: I was going to use the Mopar 2" with Fox. My understanding is that is a re-branded TerraFlex? Would likely require a bracket kit such as AEV to correct geometry. Multiple points of failure? Based on Progressive springs, Fab / install guy suggested Krawler. He is a fan of the Krawler kit, not so much a fan of their shocks. (They are pretty proud $ of them to boot) The Kralwer kit with arms and Bilstiens works out to about the same price as Mopar with brackets and Fox. Should address geometry problems. He has a fair number of customers with Krawler kits and they are all pleased. Figure if I trust him enough for install should trust his opinion / experience on kit? Way too many options out there.

 

[Comanche Scott]

Welcome to the forums! :beer:

If you weren't going to really flex out the rear axle, you could add bags inside the spring. The kit is about $100 if you want to try it.
I have no first hand experience with this, and have *read* some posts where guys have had an issue with the line getting pulled out of the bag.

The other option would be coil overs with adjustable preload.
No coil spring is going to give a good unloaded ride and control sag with the trailer, at the same time.

Evo has a lift kit called the Double Throw Down with coil overs that could be setup with adjustable preload. Pretty expensive way to pull a trailer, but uber cool.

Good luck on this!

 

[Jeffrey_A]

At Comanche Scott: Thanks for the welcome.

Well, at least there is a coil over kit. That would solve the problem no doubt. Very familiar with coil overs from various off road cars. My last off road car had King coil over and bypass. (pic attached) Easy to adjust pre load with spanner. The price, ouch. On the bright side they are easy to rebuild.

The EVO site did not give much info on the shocks or springs though. Wonder if there is an upgrade for internal bypass, remote, and if you can spec out the springs etc? I know Funco has custom King shocks made that have an air bag at the bottom. Think Firestone bag under a smoothie shock.

Given what appears to be total costs inc drive lines, etc, to swap to coil over would likely try a couple sets of bags first.

 

[lumpskie]

Jeffery_A: Stupid question but what's the tongue weight on that trailer? (I'm guess roughly 250 lbs from the look of it) I can't imagine that it would warrant air bags. If it were me, I would spring the rear slightly stiff for the unloaded condition with linear rate springs (that's a personal preference) and a little rake. That's what I do with my Tacoma. (pickup guys always have to deal with "loaded" vs "unloaded") Without weight in the bed, I loose about an inch of flex. When the bed is loaded with ~1000 lbs, I loose roughly an inch of height. I run 1.5" of rake on a 125" wheelbase, so it doesn't look weird and it rides well in both conditions. If it were me, I would avoid air bags just because they will severely limit your travel.

 

[MOguy]

Hi all, thanks for having me.

Short intro, then onto the question.

Middle age white guy with a better woman and dog than I deserve. Live in Payson AZ, a stones throw from Mormon Lake, so will be at Overland West in May.

Have a 2015 JKU and a little guy 5 wide rough rider. Mostly point to point for the Little Guy as long as it involves places most can't / wont go with their RV or travel trailer. Well, just past that point, about five six miles is good.



When we started building the Jeep the goal was no lift. Decided lift is now in order. Will be using the Rock Krawler Mid arm with Bilstien 5100 shocks at 2.5". Had long ago decided 33" would be better for us. That gets installed later this week. Should just about finish the Jeep. (Already has full armor, bumpers, winch, etc)

Here is where I am running into trouble. The tongue weight of the Little Guy is a fair amount. The springs with the lift are progressive. With the current rear springs, TeraFlex Level, it sags when the trailer is attached. Not enough to be dangerous, etc but enough to be a bother. I will be reworking the front end of the trailer to remove / relocate some weight. Has anybody ever figured a way to have full articulation with air bags or do they just get shredded? Is there another option out there? Adjustable bump stops, summo springs, spring rubbers to pull in and out? I have even thought maybe Fox air (Nitrogen) shocks?

I know folks must have hit this stumble before? Need some adjustable method to account for the tongue weight. Concerned that even with the progressive springs it will still be an issue. Yes, I did a forum search but not really finding the answer.

Really don't want to spring the Jeep for trailer weight as that would be no good without trailer. Help?

Again, thanks for having me and sorry if this has been answered before and my search juju is weak.

You are not adding much lift, why do want to go with mid arms?

I have read posts by people here talking about air bags and they seem happy with them.


I sometimes pull a cargo trailer and just move the weight around to adjust for the tongue weight. Not sure if that is really an option with a camper and much it actually weighs.

 

[Comanche Scott]

At Comanche Scott: Thanks for the welcome.

Well, at least there is a coil over kit. That would solve the problem no doubt. Very familiar with coil overs from various off road cars. My last off road car had King coil over and bypass. (pic attached) Easy to adjust pre load with spanner. The price, ouch. On the bright side they are easy to rebuild.

The EVO site did not give much info on the shocks or springs though. Wonder if there is an upgrade for internal bypass, remote, and if you can spec out the springs etc? I know Funco has custom King shocks made that have an air bag at the bottom. Think Firestone bag under a smoothie shock.

Given what appears to be total costs inc drive lines, etc, to swap to coil over would likely try a couple sets of bags first.

That is without a doubt the nicest "buggy I've seen". Must have been a fun build, and a great toy. :beer:

If I remember correctly Evolution Off Road works with King Shocks. I don't have any first hand experience with Evo, but they seem well respected in the Jeep community.

Yeah, the air bag has a lot of appeal to me as well for pulling a trailer, Just need to see how/if it affects flex. The kit is really inexpensive, and pulling the rear springs is a pretty fast job.

 

[Jeffrey_A]

You are not adding much lift, why do want to go with mid arms? I have read posts by people here talking about air bags and they seem happy with them.
I sometimes pull a cargo trailer and just move the weight around to adjust for the tongue weight. Not sure if that is really an option with a camper and much it actually weighs.

Primarily to avoid the issue of brackets to correct geometry. Also it is "upgrade-able." Moving / removing weight is on the list.

That is without a doubt the nicest "buggy I've seen". Must have been a fun build, and a great toy. :beer:

If I remember correctly Evolution Off Road works with King Shocks. I don't have any first hand experience with Evo, but they seem well respected in the Jeep community. Yeah, the air bag has a lot of appeal to me as well for pulling a trailer, Just need to see how/if it affects flex. The kit is really inexpensive, and pulling the rear springs is a pretty fast job.

Thank you. The buggy was a lot of fun. Serious one off car that turned heads. It was retired to New York. Total money pit. The juice was not worth the squeeze so to speak. Even still, a sad day when it was loaded on the transporter.



The real solution appears to be a coil over system. There is a company that installs air bags on coil overs. A way to set pre-load / increase spring rate without a spanner if you will.

http://www.universalairsuspension.c...ension-coil-over-brackets-universal-p-38.html That may be the ultimate resolution. But that is 3k total with coil over conversion, shocks, etc. Ouch.

Jeffery_A: Stupid question but what's the tongue weight on that trailer? (I'm guess roughly 250 lbs from the look of it) I can't imagine that it would warrant air bags. If it were me, I would spring the rear slightly stiff for the unloaded condition with linear rate springs (that's a personal preference) and a little rake. That's what I do with my Tacoma. (pickup guys always have to deal with "loaded" vs "unloaded") Without weight in the bed, I loose about an inch of flex. When the bed is loaded with ~1000 lbs, I loose roughly an inch of height. I run 1.5" of rake on a 125" wheelbase, so it doesn't look weird and it rides well in both conditions. If it were me, I would avoid air bags just because they will severely limit your travel.

Not a stupid question at all. Spare, Ice Chest, battery, few extra gallons of water, hard to say on tongue weight. Never weighed it. A diet is coming: I will be reworking to reduce some weight there. Also have custom rear bumper with rack, jack etc. (Pictures attached) Trouble on the Jeep is even the freedom top on and off makes a difference. Don't know much about Tacomas but we could always resolve trucks with leaf springs. My killer seems to be the coil springs.


So here is where I am currently. The install was postponed. Why? Well, a call to Krawler via fab guy and they do make an "expedition spring." Will likely set the jeep at a rake? Who knows. Guess it is being shipped from New York? Curiously my fab guy saw me on the road with trailer, etc, last weekend he noted sag as well. So, the current plan is "Expedition rate" springs, then contemplating adjustable shocks. Stiffing the shocks via clicker may "hide" some of the weight. At a bare minimum going to put reservoir on the rear shocks to avoid fade under the weight. If that combined with rework on trailer does not resolve it, then will try a few sets of bags. $100.00 vs. $3,000k? I can buy a fair number of bags. See how they do and if they shred or not.

I am also trying to cross reference Arnont shocks like the AS-2715 dimension-ally with my needs.

Arnott makes OEM replacements for air ride systems found on Chevys, Cadillacs etc. Also looking to cross reference a Level Rite to the Bilstein #24-146715, or Firestone 4356 Rancho Rear Load Adaptive Shock. Running into some serious trouble finding dimensions, etc. Not looking promising for that avenue.

There has to be a way right?

 

[Jeffrey_A]

Been awhile since I have updated this. Life. All good; just sometimes it gets in the way.

We have been sploring enjoying trails, etc. Will get a post up on some pictures, GPs upgrades, all sorts of stuff. Busy busy busy. Coming up on that time of year where it will be more and more. Decided to go ahead and lift the Jeep. Nothing major; 2.5”

So was thinking Air Bags. Last time we took the trailer out (Glamis) there was sag. Not real bad but enough that I did not care for it. Part of that is the weight on the rear. Put the trailer on a tongue diet, reworked it and have redcued some weight from it. More on that later once it is all finished.

Decided to go with a Rock Kralwer 2.5 with Mid arms. Flex System (See video below) Part of the reason was a progressive spring with Rock Kralwer vs. the other brands. Part was geometry correction with mid arms vs brackets with stock arms. Part of the reason was lots of folks rave on this and the Jeep / Fab guy Don @ RPF Fab in Tempe suggested it. I was originally leaning towards the Mopar kit with Fox and brackets.

The folks at Rock Kralwer were kind enough to potentially resolve one issue with the rear weight. Swapped out a 3.5” rear on the 2.5” kit. Had to postpone the lift a few weeks waiting on the replacement springs, but no big deal. Without the trailer, there is a slight rake to the Jeep. Not bad, ½” at the rear. Again, the 3.5” is progressive so we will see next time we take the trailer out. With luck we will do just that in late April.

On the shocks we used the Bilstien 5100 which seems to be a pretty popular option. Decided to go remote reservoir on the rear as had some rear shock fade with stock units. Should help with the fade.

While it was getting love, figured replacing the stock tie rod would be good. IDK; seems like it would take quite the wallop to bend one, but we may just have quite the wallop in our future. This is solid 7075 1.5″ aluminum. For a hoot, had it powder coated in Yellow. Of course that requires replacement of the steering stabilizer. Yes, Bilstien again. Drag link seems pretty well protected.

So now it sits on 33’s with a 2.5 lift. Not real inclined to run 35’s. Think this should suit our style and needs just fine. Waiting on some bits from powder coat that were custom made. Front brush guard under bumper and some bumper “winglets” to fill a narrow gap between the bumper and the fender flares. Drive home seemed just fine. Possibly better than stock. Well, he thought so anyways.

Bring on the summer!

Pictures.



How it sits now:

Stabilizer and new tie rod:

Disconnects and, well, other end of tie rod:

Snazzy remote shocks.

Mid Arms and non remote fronts:

And, again, how it sits:

Kind of a fun video on the install and product I found online while doing research.

 

[jscusmcvet]

I like it Jeffery. Seems like a well built mild lift. FWIW, I like a little bit of rake on a jeep. How do you like the grabber AT2's?

 

[Jeffrey_A]

I like it Jeffery. Seems like a well built mild lift. FWIW, I like a little bit of rake on a jeep. How do you like the grabber AT2's?

So far so good. They have gone everywhere I have pointed them. My one peeve on them is the lug spacing. They pick up a lot of small pebbles. Not uncommon to hear "tinks" on the under carriage 50 miles from the last place they were in the dirt. I suppose if I change them out, I will just find different size pebbles?

Not much much mud around here. I don't think they would be my choice in that environment.