Habitat/Flip pac style top for 2004-2006 Jeep Unlimited (LJ)

[Jim K in PA]

At the suggestion of Mario Donovan, I am starting a seperate thread to flesh out the viability of a JK Habitat style hard top for the 2004-2006 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (LJ).

In the JK thread, I posted the following data as a base point for estimating the potential market size for an LJ Habitat:

I just read through all 51 pages of this thread. The M&M team have done an excellent job bringing to market a very cool option for JK Unlimited owners.

As an owner of an LJ, I hope to see something similar adapted to these earlier Unlimited models. As to production, the Wrangler LJ was produced for three years (2003-2006). The LJ Rubicon was only produced in 2005 and 2006. There are production numbers available for market analysis. This data is taken from the Jeepforum.com, and are believed to be accurate, DC sourced numbers.

Production sold for the 04-06 LJ (by years)
2004 - 11,822 Unlimited
2005 - 7,450 Unlimited
2005 - 5,854 Unlimited Rubicon
2006 - 14,624 Unlimited
2006 - 6,742 Unlimited Rubicon

Totals:
33,896 - Unlimited
12,596 - Unlimited Rubicon
46,492 – Total

I hope this helps Martin and Mario with their decision making process with respect to building an LJ compatible Habitat.

To which Mario responded:

Thanks for the numbers, they correlate what I have found. At an optimistic purchase ratio of 3/10th of 1% for the universe of 46,492, the potential buyers only represent about 140 units... hmmm

This discussion would be best moved to its own thread to continue the dialog

So, here we are. I will follow this post with one outlining how/where/why the JK Habitat style option may or may not work on the LJ.

 

[Jim K in PA]

First, a bit of history (I promise to keep it short). This may help (me at least) in understanding what I am looking for from a Habitat top for our 2005 Jeep LJ Rubicon.

My wife and I are approaching a point in our lives where we will be taking more long distance vacations without our boys, who are at or near college age. We have been campers since we started dating in our teens, and still truly enjoy exploring and living outdoors. As we aged, we progressed from car camping, to decent ground tents, to just a few years ago getting a popup trailer camper for our family outings. Getting off the ground is much better for our backs and sleep quality, and we really enjoy our popup camper. But, we would rather not lug around so much equipment with the LJ, as it limits where we can take it, and is far more equipment than two people need to sleep comfortably. We are campers, not RV'ers . . . :sombrero:

So, that led us to pursue other options for combining long distance travel to and exploration of places accessible only via poor quality roads, trails, and perhaps no trails!

At this point we are quite comfortable with the idea of a RTT on our LJ. We have no mobility issues, and the quality of the RTT options available now is excellent.

Having said that, when I showed my wife the JK Habitat, she was really intrigued by the idea of accessing the sleeping area from within the truck. We seriously considered selling our 2005 LJ and buying a used JK Rubicon Unlimited in order to incorporate this innovation. However, due to a number of practical and subjective/emotional reasons, we are not going to do that.

If, in fact, the potential market for an LJ Habitat is as small as Mario perceives it to be, then it is probably not a viable pursuit from a business perspective.

From a practical standpoint, the LJ Habitat presents a couple of unique challenges to implementing it:

First, no rear side doors - access to the tent area will most likely have to be gained through a roof hatch at the rear of the vehicle. This means that any items stored back there must be moved in order to afford ingress/egress.

Second, the roof top is shorter than a JK - the stock hard top on an LJ is only about 83" long. This is not necessarily a problem, but the tent top will be smaller on an LJ than it is in the JK Habitat. I mention this because it means that JK Habitat components will not likely be useable on an LJ Habitat.

Well, there are my dos centavos on the subject. I have a few more thoughts and ideas, but I would like to hear from other LJ owners, as well as Mario and Martyn, relative to the pros and cons of developing and using an LJ Habitat.

Have a great day!

 

[thebrassnuckles]

what is the lenght of the bed o a FP? I havent ever measured mine.

couldnt you just get an old flippac and chop that sucker up (which is my plan for my 1st gen 4runner) and make it fit?

If the length of the bed is not longer than the length of the jeep top it would be pretty "simple"..

take the flip pac shell and cut it to the required shape of a jeep top, and you are done...:coffeedrink:

 

[Jim K in PA]

Hmmm . . . nothin' but me and the crickets I guess . . .

brass - I was kind of looking for more than a sawzall and silicone approach to the top . . . No offense, but I really want a good finished appearance that will hold up for many years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles. Any solution that gets close to that criteria will not be easy or "simple". But I appreciate your input, nonetheless. :sombrero:

I am going to build my own rack for the RTT and whatever else I must keep on the roof. With no reason to keep the LJ stock, I am seriously considering my alternate plan, which is to stretch the tub 10-12" behind the rear wheels. That will permit the installation of a second 21 gallon fuel tank, as well as add more interior space. A custom top will be needed, but I think I can adapt the OEM soft top frame, and have some custom canvas made up for it. I would prefer a hard top for overland travel, but the canvas will keep the rain and snow out too.

 

[thebrassnuckles]

well... I meant use fiberglass to get it to fit...

haha..

but yeah.. My flippac 4runner might have a bit of a homemade feel to it in the end.. but thats fine with me... I plan on beating on it.

 

[Haggis]

No your not alone, a few of us LJ owners expressed interest in the concept when Martyn and Mario first started discussing the idea for the JK. We're approaching the same point as you as our kids will be heading in their own direction and it will soon be just us. Having an intergrated sleeping platform instead of a drag inducing, top heavy RTT would be nice. I really liked the idea of a Flippac for the LJ, but I have thought upon it and have a few doubts about it's actual practicality. Mainly accessing the tent through the interior without unloading gear of having to preform contortionists like moves. If there was a way to open the top and enter the habitat from the outside I think it would be more practical. I don't really want anything were I had to unload gear in the rain or snow to use the sleeping area.

 

[elcoyote]

The shortness of the LJ top can be overcome with a slight nose bump out over the windshield. Ideally you want to have a mattress length of 80" so it is conceivable that a reasonable sleep area can be created. That being said, using some common parts may be a possibility. That actually is the easy part. Making the lower half, the shell portion that can handle the stresses exerted by the torsion rod and fits properly to the vehicle is far more complicated. Much more difficult than a pick up truck shell that merely has to fit a 2 dimensional mating surface. The contours and sealing of of the doors and windshield are challenges.

 

[Jim K in PA]

Mark - I agree and understand. The side door access of the JK Habitat is what makes it work, IMO. For rear access, I think a hard top that included an entire replacement of the rear window and swinging gate would need to be designed, with perhaps an extension of the cap to the rear beyond the back panel of the truck. That would potentially allow access from outside without unloading the cargo area. However, that would create departure angle problems, and probably look like poop . . . I don't want to turn my LJ into a Class C RV.

Mario - the structural and sealing challenges are clearly where the engineering time goes. Are/were those challenges easier to overcome with the JK? As for the overhang, I would actually prefer the top to overhang at the rear roof area, but I suppose it makes little difference.

I guess a tub stretch and a CJ-8 soft top are in my future. Not such a bad alternative.

 

[elcoyote]

In my mind, access is via a hatch directly above the front seats between the windshield frame and the roll bar causing no disruption of cargo area.

 

[Jim K in PA]

In my mind, access is via a hatch directly above the front seats between the windshield frame and the roll bar causing no disruption of cargo area.

Hmm - that could work. It puts the access hatch further forward than the JK unit, but I don't see that as a problem. Access from the passenger side door would be obviously easier without the steering wheel. The passenger seat on the '05 and '06 models also is a fold and slide, so perhaps climbing in from the passenger rear footwell area would reduce the contortion factor?

 

[elcoyote]

Hmm - that could work. It puts the access hatch further forward than the JK unit, but I don't see that as a problem. Access from the passenger side door would be obviously easier without the steering wheel. The passenger seat on the '05 and '06 models also is a fold and slide, so perhaps climbing in from the passenger rear footwell area would reduce the contortion factor?

Where's the roll bar?

 

[Jim K in PA]

Where's the roll bar?

The main roll hoop is approximately 31" from the windshield header. There are two forward running cage tubes that connect the corners of the main hoop to the corners of the windshield frame. There is 41" maximum between the two parallel tubes. This part of the Wrangler structure is the same for all TJ and LJ platforms.

If this is not the dimensional data you were looking for, let me know what you need.

 

[Haggis]

My wife and I went out last night to guage the possibility of accessing a camper top from the passenger's seat. It's doable with the seat in either in the seated or folded foreward postion, but either way a larger perosn would have some trouble. My wife preferred the seat in the seated postion as she is on the petite side and thinks the descent down wouild be easier for her that way. Still, she mentioned she'd like access from the outside so as to not be mucking up the interior.

 

[Jim K in PA]

My wife and I went out last night to guage the possibility of accessing a camper top from the passenger's seat. It's doable with the seat in either in the seated or folded foreward postion, but either way a larger perosn would have some trouble.

Getting a "leg up" is going to be an issue with the seat up or folded forward. I had thought about looking into one of the other Chrysler products for a fold-flat passenger seat. I think they came in the Magnum and the mini-vans. I have no idea if would fit in a Jeep, or if it would make access easier.

My wife preferred the seat in the seated postion as she is on the petite side and thinks the descent down wouild be easier for her that way. Still, she mentioned she'd like access from the outside so as to not be mucking up the interior.

I think this is an issue with the JK Habitat as well. With the LJ, it becomes more of a problem due to the seat back not folding flat.

Are we trying to put lipstick on a pig here? I don't want to waste Mario's time (or anyone else's) on a lost cause.

 

[elcoyote]

I think this is an issue with the JK Habitat as well. With the LJ, it becomes more of a problem due to the seat back not folding flat.

It is no problem through the rear passenger door on the JK Habitat with the seat folded flat. In fact easier than if the access were through the rear due to the very small area between the rear roll bar and the rear of the shell.