High Intensity Discharge (HID)

[Tred]

Hello folks.

In case you missed my intro post in the General Discussion, I'm Tred from Flagstaff, Arizona with a 2002 3RZ 4WD.

Anyhow, I was wondering if any of you had an HID setup as headlights or auxiliary lights? Do they help seeing better on the dirt too? Are there any problems with vibration and dirt? (I found one post with some talks of HID.)

I'm thinking about getting the ACA kit as I have found a good price.

 

[asteffes]

Tred, I have some experience using aftermarket HID retrofit kits on various lamps. Like any light source, HID kits benefit from (and require, really) good quality optics to focus the light properly. Without a good lens and/or reflector to focus the light, brighter light sources like high-wattage halogen bulbs or HID xenon light sources will create glare blinding to on-coming traffic and of little benefit to you. However, when used with headlamp or auxilliary lamp housings that properly focus the light, an HID kit will provide a dramatic improvement in the amount and distribution of light on the road. They are not perfect, however.

One problem with HID light sources is the wavelength of light they produce is very close to that of real daylight. While, in theory, this seems like a good thing, in reality it makes it more difficult to judge colors at night (everything takes on a sort of blueish-greyish hue.) And while the beam pattern of a quality reflector/lens combination should have a nice sharp, clean cutoff to reduce glare, this doesn't necessarily help your vision in heavy fog, rain or snow, as the blueish-whiteish light tends to reflect and scatter off of any moisture in the air.

I've found with my 2006 Tacoma that the factory headlamps have a well-focused beam pattern that benefits greatly from a higher wattage halogen bulb. I'm using 80/100 watt H4 bulbs from Hella and the lighting difference is amazing. I have tested for glare by driving behind and toward friends and they report that my lights are no more annoying or blinding than any other vehicle's lamps. For $22, I'm very pleased with the improvement. The lights are so good, in fact, that my 55 watt Hella 500 driving lamps really offer little improvement in lighting (they provide slightly more distance, but so little as to be almost inconsequential.)

I have used an aftermarket HID kit with Audi RS2 projector-beam headlamps on my 1993 Audi 90 with excellent results. These are euro-spec lamps that provide focus and sharp cut-off even better than most US-spec HID lamps on Audis, BMW, Acuras and the like. However, while the HIDs are great in dry weather, in inclement weather I find myself wishing I had used 100 watt halogen bulbs instead for better color and depth perception.

I have some Hella Rallye 4000 driving lamps that I may experiment with using the Hella aftermarket HID kit from the Audi (they use the same H1-size bulb capsules.) I'll let you know how it works out.

 

[Scott Brady]

Hey Tred!

I will be doing some research with summer on lighting, in preparation for the Arctic trip. With near total darkness, lighting will be critical.

 

[Tred]

I've done some web researching with Kelvin ratings and such when I purchased two sets of IPF 968s last year. I compared different reflectors the best I could, and looked at replacement bulbs too. The only thing I didn't do was look into aftermarket HID kits to replace the Halogen bulbs. I know these kits have been around, but they were pretty expensive, and perhaps they didn't have H3 bulb kits available back then. I remember wanting the Hella 4000 HID lights, but those were way over priced. Of course, they're so overpriced that Geico would have paid for most of the "loss" if it was damaged or stolen, but it would still be no fun having to pay $500 every time someone got rich.

The IPF 968s are pretty nice. I think they're pretty good for the price. I have 3 on a lightbar I got from Randy Ellis Design in Phoenix. The middle one is aimed a bit higher/farther, and it's on a separate switch. With the 100w bulb that's included in the kit, it lights up the trail/road pretty good. I've been thinking about mounting the forth one somewhere in the rear, as the other day driving through snow, I ended up at a dead end, and I couldn't see POOP backing out at night in the heavy snowfall.

Anyhow, I just checked, and it appears the H3 style Xenon bulb just won't fit in the IPF housing. The Xenon bulb is too long, and the shape of the reflector also doesn't seem Xenon friendly with the multi-reflector design. I'm sure it'll be brighter, but also somewhat prone to theft. Without the ignitors and the ballast, I'm guessing it'll be worth near $300.

I started thinking about HID recently because I discovered that ACA Performance had started making kits including the entire housing/assembly, projector lens, bi-xenon bulbs, ballast, ignitor, all other wiring and etc. Best of all, it's DOT approved. The Kelvin rating is 4200K, with 3200 lumens of light output. No blueish tint, and much brighter than Halogen. The housing looks solid, even though I haven't seen it in person, and the installation process looks much easier than when I installed my IPF lights. The only drawback is its cost. MSRP is $1000, I believe.

Here's some photos and info from a fellow CTer (Customtacos.com) of mine: http://www.scott-industries.com/projects.html
Then ACA's website: http://www.acaperformance.com/

I found a source to buy the kit somewhat discounted, but it's still in the air as he needs 4 more people to get in on the deal.

You've mentioned due to the color, you wish you had Halogen in inclement weather. What was the Kelvin rating? With the ACA kit, I'd have to buy a new set of bulbs if I choose to use 3000K bulbs rather than using the included 4200K bulbs. I understand that the higher the Kelvin rating, the less usable light there is, and more glare. Since most cars that have HID in stock configuration have 4200K bulbs, I was hoping the glare won't be as bad, and it won't make it too hard to see in wet road/ground conditions. Or perhaps the kit you've experiemented with were so bright that it was as if you had bright auxiliary lights on.

Anyhow, any info is appreciated on this subject! Thanks all!

 

[asteffes]

Audis have HID capsules around the 6000 Kelvin level. BMWs are even more blue-purple. My kit's output looks dead-on like a US-spec Audi's HID lamps. A 4000 Kelvin kit would probably be a good compromise between HID-light output and halogen-like color temperature.

 

[ducktapeguy]

Hey Tred,

I'm somewhat of a lighting fanatic also and have tried various HID's and regular incandescents. I pretty much agree with asteffes, given the choice, I prefer my 100W lightforces (incandescent bulbs) to the HID's. I really like the output of the HID's, and the fact that they're more efficient, but there's just something about them that makes it harder to see things (completely subjective observation). I don't think it has as much to do with the kelvin rating as the narrow color band. Maybe my eyes just weren't used to it, but I felt like I just didn't get enough contrast, especially in snow and rain, and the beam didn't seem to "penetrate" very well, even thought it "looked" a lot whiter than halogens.

BTW, I was using 4200K, I thought that was what all stock HID's are rated at. When i was researching a few years ago, I think there are only two companies that make HID bulbs, Phillips and some other one, i forget. Most all other companies just source out these bulbs and either add in some different filler gases or do something to change the Kelvin rating, but you're right, the lower the kelvin, the more lumens. Never heard of 3000K bulbs so it might be new.

As far as vibration, the HID's are supposedly rated to 2000 hours, much longer than a regular bulb. There's no filament to break, so vibration doesn't really affect it as much, however, if you blow a bulb or ballast, you're stuck because you can't just pick up another bulb at the nearest store.

 

[Tred]

Hi Duck. Thanks for the response.

From my understanding (but not personal experience), it's harder to see because the human eye does not see very well with/in blue light conditions. And as we all know, the higher the Kelvin rating, the bluer and more purple the color gets. I think the lumen output very slightly drops as the Kelvin rating rises, but I remember seeing a chart somewhere on the web where it listed the lumen output of each bulbs this particular e-commerce offered, and the lumen output dropped 100 as the Kelvin rating rised.

As to my concern regarding vibration and dirt, because of the lack of filaments, I understand it's "supposed" to last longer than halogen bulbs. But is it really offroad friendly? Not that I've blown a halogen bulb while offroading, but if it does happen with HID bulbs, you're right. I won't be able to pick it up locally, would have to order it from somewhere, it'll cost more because it's bi-xenon, and reconverting to halogen for the time being will take some time.

If no one's tried out the ACA Performance Kit, I suppose I can be the guinea pig and try it out. Perhaps, Scott, I could provide you with an option to go with for your lighting needs for your expedition. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[flyingwil]

Not sure if this helps you or not... Here is my bookmark from Paul over at TTORA write up of the ACA Kit in a '04 Taco.

Top is the stock lights, and Bottom is the HID Lights

Edit: I just reread your posts and looks like you know Paul as well.

Hope that helps you a bit,
Wil

 

[ducktapeguy]

Hi Duck. Thanks for the response.

From my understanding (but not personal experience), it's harder to see because the human eye does not see very well with/in blue light conditions. And as we all know, the higher the Kelvin rating, the bluer and more purple the color gets. I think the lumen output very slightly drops as the Kelvin rating rises, but I remember seeing a chart somewhere on the web where it listed the lumen output of each bulbs this particular e-commerce offered, and the lumen output dropped 100 as the Kelvin rating rised.

As to my concern regarding vibration and dirt, because of the lack of filaments, I understand it's "supposed" to last longer than halogen bulbs. But is it really offroad friendly? Not that I've blown a halogen bulb while offroading, but if it does happen with HID bulbs, you're right. I won't be able to pick it up locally, would have to order it from somewhere, it'll cost more because it's bi-xenon, and reconverting to halogen for the time being will take some time.

If no one's tried out the ACA Performance Kit, I suppose I can be the guinea pig and try it out. Perhaps, Scott, I could provide you with an option to go with for your lighting needs for your expedition. I'll keep you all posted.

I can't really say if they actually do last longer than regular halogen, but I ran them for 2 years in my headlights before one of them died. Drove some washboard road with them, and they held up fine, although I also did the same thing with regular bulbs and didnt' have a problem either. So I guess that doesn't really say much. I also had a plug-n-play kit, meaning when the bulb did die, all I had to do was put my stock bulbs back in and reconnect the harness (bypassing the ballast), so switching back is no big deal. I chose to do it this way instead of a complete housing replacement just for this reason, so I could keep my stock bulbs in the car in case of failure. It's not that important if you are using them as auxilliary lighting, but if you're planning on converting your headlights that might be an issue.

One thing you might already be aware of is the different characteristics of the HID bulb. It probably takes maybe 10-20 seconds before the bulb is fully warmed up and at maximum brightness, during which time you'll notice some slight color shift. Also, you're not supposed to restrike them when they're hot, meaning it's not very good if you want to use them as high beams to flash oncoming cars. There are some HID's which do not have these problems, but most likely they're not standard yet. I dunno if this would be an issue for you, but sometimes when I turn on my lights, I want them on NOW.

If you're looking for even more light, they do have some 50W and 75W HID's currently being sold. If you're looking for maximum brightness, that's the way to go . I've seen the 50W ones, they're bright, but unless you're comparing them side by side with a standard 35W, you may not really notice it that much.

 

[Tred]

Wil, thanks for the photos. Yes, I've met him on CT, and he's actually the one I'm trying to get my ACA kit from. I think we still need 4 more people.

I'm also aware of the HID's start up characteristic. Believe it or not, the car that my parents bought sometime around 1997, I believe, had HID in it. They live in Japan, and the car was a Toyota Mark II, one that I've never seen over here. Beautiful car. Very quiet ride. It was a turbo, too. Anyhow, I loved how it starts up: soft bluish purple to very bright white light in a few seconds. 10 years later, we're finally getting cars with HID headlights here in the US. Rather pathetic, I must say.

I rarely flash my highbeams to signal people, but sometimes I do turn my lights off then right back on to signal to let them in my lane. I guess I'll just have to be careful, or use my IPFs for that purpose.

I should be using the money for something else, like a suspension upgrade. I'm satisfied with the stock suspension for now, and I don't need new tires yet. I could get a winch bumper, but I've got a 4 cylinder, so I wouldn't want to make my truck too heavy. I just seemed to have grown this fascination with lights, flashlights, headlamps, etc. I'm a nerd, I guess. I like surefire, and I carry two for work and one for my volunteer work. Of course, I have one in my truck too. Recently, I bought this thing called a Glo-Toob, which is kind of like a battery operated glowstick. I've gone off-track again...

I'm not that happy with my stock halogen headlights, so even though the ACA costs a bit more than I want it to, the price is justifiable for what it's worth, and I think it'll make me happy. This group buy sort of thing might not happen though. As I've said, we can't seem to get 4 more people to complete it. But if not, I guess I could save the money towards a suspension upgrade....