Intro post, with a twist -- Taking the plunge!

[Aegis]

Sincerest apologies if this isn't in the right sub-forum; I couldn't quite figure out the best place for it, and I didn't want to clutter a single manufacturer-specific area being that I have some broader questions.

Evening everyone,

Figured there's no better way to make an introduction than with a question -- a million dollar one, at that! Some background first, before getting down to it:

HI. I'm Jeff. I'm a 28 year old guy who lives in Boston with his fiancee, Christina, and our 14 month old Rottweiler x Doberman, Sailor Bruce. I've always been fascinated with camping, overlanding, and generally just existing in the outdoors. I grew up spending my weekends in Vermont and New Hampshire, and have done my fair share of winter camping and backpacking. I've always been passionate about cars as well. I'm not *quite* a driveway mechanic, but I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty -- as long as I have the right instruction and the appropriate tools, I'm willing to give anything a shot! Most of my time has been spent tinkering with European autos; Audis and Volvos, specifically. I'm not a foreigner to the concept of vehicles that require more than their fair share of upkeep, as well as to ones that have their own "quirks" if you will.

I've spent COUNTLESS evenings lurking on multiple forums... ExPo, LRF/DiscoWeb/RR.net, PlanetIsuzoo, JeepForum... Just thinking about how much I'd love to get out there. I've slowly transitioned myself away from having purely sport oriented vehicles over the years; moving from Audi S4s, Volvo T5-Rs, and VW R32s to an Audi Allroad. After this winter, and some mechanical issues on the Audi (read: crippling water damage due to a broken window due to vandalism during a torrential downpour), I've found myself in an interesting spot. The time has come, and I think I'm ready to move into a bigger rig and start getting out there.

Here's where I'm looking to the community. Full disclosure: I've never been off-road. The extent of my time "off the pavement" comes with tooling around fields in Vermont with the allroad on Level 4, and driving on service roads off of the beaten path. My ULTIMATE end goal is to have the confidence and rig capable of letting me participate in a future Vermont Overland Trophy; call it my "White Whale", if you will.

The issue is that I've settled on three options for potential rigs, but I honestly don't know what'd be the best option for me considering what I'm looking for. Hopefully, I can get some (un)biased opinions from the crew here, and maybe come a little closer to getting out of the city and into the woods!

So. Without further adieu, for your consideration:

Option 1: Disco 2. Preferably something with CDL, whether it's existent or me adding the necessary linkage. Ideally, an '04.

Out of all the options I've considered, the D2 is absolutely my favorite as far as aesthetics. It's also the only one I've actually never driven personally.

Option 2: Isuzu Trooper, 2nd Generation.

This is actually the car I learned to drive in. I've always had a soft-spot for 'em, and admittedly, I like that you don't see them done up all that often.

Option 3: Jeep ZJ, 5.2/5.9.

The misses has one as a winter beater to help keep her 350Z in working order/not wrapped around a guard rail, and though it's got a biblical amount of miles on it, is the I6, and has seen better days, I actually don't mind driving it.


So. Three options. None of them terrible. I'm fully aware of the work that goes into building a proper rig, though there's still a lot that I'm sort of confused by as far as concept and implementation. I also know that there's an added level of "oh crap" with considering a Rover, but I'm also QUITE used to dealing with quirky, albeit insufferable, European autos at this point.

I'm not looking to go rock-crawling every weekend. I'm not looking to take-on the apocalypse. I'm not looking to circumnavigate the earth and live in my rig. WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR is something that I can take off-road as I learn more about doing so, camp with without going to a KOA or hook-up site, and comfortably go into the unknown on the weekends in with the dog and the misses. Will I install a snorkel? Probably. Yup. I know. "Mall crawler". That's fine, feel free to laugh. I've loved them since I was a little kid, I've always wanted one, and hell, if I can have one, I will. I'll buy it with my money, not yours, so don't worry ... Also, I'd ULTIMATELY love to get to a point where I may actually get to use said snorkel, assuming I've gone ahead and relocated/raised all other appropriate breather lines, etc. Like I said, VOT is sort of my end-game. I won't be doing the crazy stuff that merits the winch, bumpers, etc. in the beginning, but I'm hoping to make some new friends and get more comfortable off-road so that I can get to a point where I DO need those things, and don't just look like a huge poser, lol.

A note: this also will be daily driven, so there's that.



PHEW. Yeah. Sorry. That's a helluva first post, and terribly long-winded. If you've taken the time to read through, 1,000 thanks!! Hopefully this isn't a terrible request on my end, and I'm genuinely interested to see what everyone's thoughts and opinions are on my choices/conundrum.

Thanks again, and have a great night!!

Cheers,

Jeff

 

[SoCalMonty]

Welcome, Jeff!

Looks like we have similar tastes in cars (several heavily modified VW's and redblock/whiteblock Volvos).

I'm gonna be a little short, but rest assured I read your post and I think I understand your intended usage. Sounds like you want a good "all-arounder" that will be at home either on or off the pavement.

Option 1: I'd rule it out, and do not pass go or collect $200. I was obsessed with them for a long time, and know a couple people who wheel them. Reliability is not their strong suit. And for when you do find yourself getting more brave with your off-road excursions (trust me - it will happen!), none of them come with locking diffs. I know, I was shocked too. For the reputation they had, you'd think this would be at least an optional feature. I'd really skip them. There's a reason I can buy a 2000 Rover (that stickered for what...$60k?) for $1200 almost any day of the week.

Option 2: I don't know a whole lot about them, other than people sometimes would mistake my '89 Montero LWB for a Trooper. I did look into Amigos and Rodeos some years ago. But after my first Montero, I was hooked and stopped looking at Isuzus. The designs seem overall similar, but it seemed like the Mitsu was just a little more rugged. Still, I like the Troopers, and consider them kissin' cousins to the Monteros.

Option 3: My mom had a '93 Grand Wagoneer 5.2L. I beat the piss out of it. Good truck. No frame, like an XJ...so it's basically a station wagon with low range 4WD. Less interior space than the Trooper I'd imagine? Lots of aftermarket. Parts are cheap and plentiful. Most used specimens I see now are high mile and often with leaky rings or slipping gearboxes. Plenty capable...if it meets your space requirements, it might be a good option.

OK...some other things I would consider if I were you...

2nd Generation Montero (1994-1997). SR models had a rear locker. 9.5" rear ring gear, 4.636 gears, and can handle 32's without a lift. Good power, good reliability, and ridiculously rugged. Nice interior, good cargo room. Admittedly, I'm biased.

Toyota 4-Runner. Reliable, capable, all around decent truck. Good aftermarket support.

Also, I should mention...most people (sorry guys) put a LOT of parts on to a truck because they think it needs them in order to traverse the terrain they hope to traverse. More often than not, a bone stock vehicle can go FAR further than most people realize. I'd encourage you to adopt the "less is more" philosophy...when you get your truck, take it out and geta feel for it's capabilities and it's drawbacks. Take your time, read, and plan your mods. I see SOOOOO many people spend $3,000 on cosmetics that make a truck *look* more rugged, but don't help them traverse terrain or simply aren't required to do what they plan to do. In other words, that $3000 could have been better spent elsewhere and actually gotten results.

I hope that helps...I'll keep an eye on the thread and see where you go!

 

[Aegis]

Evening Sean,

Thanks for the response! I've got the same feeling about the D2s... I keep looking, and telling myself that they'll be fine, lol. "CDL's enough." "They're as quirky as any Audi or Volvo I've had." The list goes on. I was able to get myself off of the "Maybe I should get a P38..." train finally, but there's still that European glimmer that I can't let-go of, lol.

The Trooper would definitely have more space inside than the ZJ, which, though not SUPER important, does make a touch of a difference. I'm 6'3" 200 lbs, and the pup is 85 lbs. at 14 mos... Not exactly small, by any means. Though I don't primarily plan on doing much in-rig sleeping, when/if the time comes, it'd be nice not to be toooo balled up and on top of one another. Add the misses into the mix, and it's getting pretty friendly, lol.

I do like the Monteros, but they're seemingly hard to find on the East Coast. 4Runners are dime-a-dozen here, and though I know how reputable they are, something just doesn't speak to me with them. I know that isn't the most important thing, but admittedly, it does mean a bit to me. Probably more than it should. If I were going to go down the Yota route, it'd have to be for a Cruiser of some sort -- preferably something newer and bloated, because, well, I think they're fantastic, lol.

I agree on the "less is more" front. I'm still learning about lifts/tires/all that fun stuff (all of my knowledge is in spinning coils down, not lifting things up, lol), but I think the initial/first mods for whatever I snag will be a 2"-3" lift and some larger (although not necessarily wider) rubber.


This is all such foreign ground for me; in a way, it's kind of fun having to re-learn everything and start fresh. I don't have any biases or preconceived ideas as to what works best, so I'm getting a fresh palate

 

[getlost4x4]

P38

 

[Aegis]

P38

Oh, believe me. I know your build ALL too well, and it's the constant nudge in the back of my mind telling me to say "screw it." and grab a P38. My tell-tale heart, if you will...

 

[getlost4x4]

i have a Toyota Sequoia as well now. I'm going to turn it into a back-roads cruiser. Light trail duty.

After driving 1500 miles in the Toyota this last weekend. I can honestly say, I like my Rover 100 times more. from the interior comfort to the exterior appearance. Sure the Toyota may be a bit more reliable, its just not up to the fit and finish of the Range Rover.

 

[Aegis]

i have a Toyota Sequoia as well now. I'm going to turn it into a back-roads cruiser. Light trail duty.

After driving 1500 miles in the Toyota this last weekend. I can honestly say, I like my Rover 100 times more. from the interior comfort to the exterior appearance. Sure the Toyota may be a bit more reliable, its just not up to the fit and finish of the Range Rover.

On that note, a question about the P38: would you say it's any more of a headache/quirk-filled hell-hole than any other late 90s European automobile, or does it fall into it's own category of "kill it with fire" when things go wrong?

 

[Chazz Layne]

From the replies so far, I feel like I own a unicorn. I have 120,000 miles on my D2 (2004), and have never had a trip-ending failure let alone a stranding failure. I wouldn't hesitate to trust it on a trip of any length. If you're already used to (and enjoy) a little tinkering I certainly wouldn't rule one out, especially if you can score a 2004. They're actually quite easy to work on once you get used to their quirks, and no more expensive than most other 4WDs to maintain.

I will say this though: definitely sit in one before buying—most folks either absolutely love how it fits or absolutely hate it.



On the ZJ, you'll be better off sticking with the 5.2. The 5.9, while sweet, is too much motor for the drivetrain (transmission issues).

 

[Aegis]

From the replies so far, I feel like I own a unicorn. I have 120,000 miles on my D2 (2004), and have never had a trip-ending failure let alone a stranding failure. I wouldn't hesitate to trust it on a trip of any length. If you're already used to (and enjoy) a little tinkering I certainly wouldn't rule one out, especially if you can score a 2004. They're actually quite easy to work on once you get used to their quirks, and no more expensive than most other 4WDs to maintain.

I will say this though: definitely sit in one before buying—most folks either absolutely love how it fits or absolutely hate it.



On the ZJ, you'll be better off sticking with the 5.2. The 5.9, while sweet, is too much motor for the drivetrain (transmission issues).

I'll definitely keep that in mind... I haven't actually sat in a Rover outside of a friend's RRC years ago. Not sure how it'll be with me being on the taller side, but that's what a good ol' climbing in will tell me, lol. The '04 definitely is at the top of the list as far as Discovery hierarchies go for me. The upgraded headlights and CDL are huge pluses. Admittedly, I only just learned the benefit of having CDL, and am just now starting to get a better understanding for all of these off-road concepts, but I know enough to know that if I have the option of having it vs. not having it, I'd rather have it, lol.

Thanks for the heads-up on the 5.9 too. I sort of have been at a place of "either one's fine by me"... Glad to know that I should keep sights set on the 5.2 only, if the ZJ ends up coming-out on top.

... It's funny. I never actually thought I'd have this hard of a time deciding on a vehicle. It seems like every day, I wake up and reason as to why THIS IS THE ONE that I'll be looking for, only to be pushed in a different direction by the end of the day, all at my own hands. I guess it's better that I'm taking my time, but still. INSTANT GRATIFICATION, WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU!?

 

[getlost4x4]

i've never been left stranded. i can take 2000+ mile trips and not worry. i don't carry any spare parts other then a serpentine belt, coil packs and plug wires.

The worst thing that has happened is my alternator went out at 125K miles. 90 miles from the nearest town with a parts store. i was able to call ahead and find an alternator. i drove with everything off electrical that i could. i made it to the store and installed a new alternator in the parking lot with the tools i had in the truck.

I also had my crank position sensor go out. but it was a 30 minute swap in the garage.

you don't need any special tools to work on these.

I've also replaced all the cooling system at 120K miles. Maintenance for me.

i run all synthetic fluids.

coil springs ( throw the air suspension away if you are actually planning on using it off road). it to fragile and expensive to mess with all the time.

I put a new exhaust system on mine with free flowing mufflers, much better power, better gas mileage as well. i'm getting about 17 on the highway with 33" tires and stock axle gearing.

I only paid $5000 for mine. i've had it for 3.5 years now. i've put about 55K miles on it. its been to Moab, all over Montana and Wyoming. I use it as an oil field vehicle occasionally as well. it can be made reliable and parts are really not that bad if you take your time to find them at a good price. maintenance is key to owning one.

I'm of course not going into detail about everything i've done to it. but you can read about it here.

http://www.rme4x4.com/showthread.php?97213-The-Money-Pit

 

[Aegis]

.

Thanks for the response, it actually greatly helps. For what it's worth, I actually have your "Money Pit" thread bookmarked; felt a need to have something saved for if I ever decided to go down the P38 path, lol.

... I'm also glad to hear that it hasn't been a giant train-wreck for you. I know every car is different, but it seems like you can't even mention "P38" anywhere without suddenly incurring the wrath of an entire forum. The only thing a Jeep guy and a Rover guy will ever agree on is that the 3rd guy with the P38 is an idiot for owning one, it would appear. "Not with a 10 ft. pole and if you gave it to me for free."

Which sucks. Because I love them. I do. Of all the rigs I posted, the P38 absolutely is my favorite. I love the lines of it. I love the interior. I love what it potentially can be. I want to love it, and I want to own it, but I'll confess that I've been scared away multiple times.

Perhaps I shouldn't have been/shouldn't be...

 

[getlost4x4]

Can you turn a wrench and plug in a OBD2 scanner?

Can you read a repair manual?

Can you read a forum and find solutions to problems?

If you can, all the info in the world is out there for these.

Buy one that has been taken care of, that is in good running condition. Then rip off the air suspension, put on some Old Man Emu Coils and be nearly done.

I really haven't had to do much to make mine more capable. the traction control works really well. I installed a winch up front and have only needed it twice for myself. i've extracted more people with it then i've ever needed to do for myself. Get a 2000-2002 model to avoid a lot of the early issues with these rigs.

I have a 135K miles and have never had to do anything major to the engine.

 

[getlost4x4]

When I went to Moab, I saw no less then 4 Jeeps stuck and broken on the trail. I just cruised by with my cold AC blowing. Not to mention I was only running 31" tall tires and all the jeeps were on 33" or taller tires.

Nothing against Jeeps. I've owned 3. But the Range Rover is the longest I've ever owned a vehicle. I've owned about 30 different cars in the last 20 years. The Range is by far the longest one I've owned and my favorite.

... I'm also glad to hear that it hasn't been a giant train-wreck for you. I know every car is different, but it seems like you can't even mention "P38" anywhere without suddenly incurring the wrath of an entire forum. The only thing a Jeep guy and a Rover guy will ever agree on is that the 3rd guy with the P38 is an idiot for owning one, it would appear. "Not with a 10 ft. pole and if you gave it to me for free."

 

[Aegis]

Hm. That definitely helps to hear, I really appreciate it. Generally, everything I've read are either 1. The problems posted on RR.net (which makes sense, that's mostly why people post to a forum; not to say "hey all, everything works great today, no problems!") or 2. The opinions of others who are talking about what they think they know/have read/have heard, but haven't actually owned one themselves.

... I'm no stranger to an OBDII port, I carried my Bentley/Haynes manuals religiously with me in all the past cars I've had, and I'm no stranger to pulling up a forum from my phone for a last minute issue. I guess I've only really ruled the P38s out because of a handfull of people telling me THEY wouldn't buy one, and have never owned one.


If I can't find an '04 Disco, I'd certainly be more than happy with a lower mileage, well-maintained '00 - '02 P38. I know experiences vary, but it's nice to hear how capable and not-as-doomed-as-told this rig can be

 

[redthies]

I love the look of the 04 D2. A subcontractor I know has one and my sis in law has an 02. I don't hear complaints about the 04, but the 02 sees a tow truck on a regular basis. I think you nailed it with the comments on the various forums. You only see the majority of people posting when they have issues. You can find a thousand little reasons to NOT buy ANY vehicle if you just read forums. You need to go and sit in as well as drive all the vehicles you are considering. Maybe you won't buy any of the examples you drive now, but at least you'll get a chance to see, touch, feel their good and bad points.

If it were my money, I would probably go for a Jeep just due to lower purchase, repair and mod costs. But if I had more to choose from, I would look at 80 series Landcruisers.